To "finish" an existing layout, or rebuild to improve, that is the question???

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Hi,

Its 12:30 AM and I am up here writing about trains… I have a problem, and while, I am not looking for advice, I am curious if any of you have had my situation, and what you did about it. This really is serious to me, and your experiences could surely help me out.

I have an HO layout that is 100% finished as far as benchwork, trackwork, wiring and major scenery is concerned, and most of the structures are in place or built, and the backdrop is finished. Left to do is build a couple of structures, put in a road or two, and detail an area about 4x6, and of course, populate the layout. The work done so far is actually pretty nice, and derailments are almost always “operator error”. Control is two MRC Controlmaster 20s.

The layout is 15x11, with a lower staging tracks and reverse loop, a main level, and a third (upper) level that runs the outside perimeter of the layout, with a second reverse loop. The three levels are connected by a 2% rise. Simply put, you can run a train in “circles” on the upper level, while running a second train on the main/lower level or do some switching.

During construction to the present, I maintained a log on “what I did right, what I would change, and what I would do next time”. Thankfully, there are only a few items in the what I would change category - but they are significant to me.

The next layout would not have the upper level (it takes up precious “ground” in the main level), would not have the hidden reverse loop (how could I have conceived that?), and a few other things. Of course if I built a new one, I would wire for DCC - but I think I would continue with DC for the short term (but that is just how I feel today).

I have a lot of time and effort in this one, and while I could salvage some of the scenery and much of the track/turnouts, a lot of good work would get trashed.

2

The question I have to ask of you is: can you achieve what you want to achieve with the current layout? Or does what you want to require you to re-conceive your layout?

3

It’s a hobby. Hobbies are meant to be fun. Fun sometimes means going in new directions.

Are you having fun?

4

Sounds to me like you are unsatisfied with the current layout. Since it can’t be fixed, you should start the next one.

My current layout is not as far along as yours is (11x18 - 100% benchwork, 70% track, 50% wiring) but I am building a new one because my desires changed and this layout doesn’t meet them. The new layout will not be finished before I retire and move, but it will let me try some ideas out before I start the big retirement layout.

Enjoy

Paul

5

Are you a Builder or an Operator?

A number of years back, I was a Flight Simulator addict. I’d spend hours scouring the Web for freeware scenery contributions to add to my Flight Simulator world - ground details and airport terminals, mostly. I’d add these in, and then edit the taxiways and paths so that the planes would go to the right gates. I’d add airplanes from region-specific airlines, and develop flight schedules for them. Then, I’d do a couple of flights in and out of the new airports, and go back to looking for more scenery. My “flight hours” were pretty minimal, but my “work hours” were extreme.

Guess what I do now with my railroad. Yup, I’m a Builder, all right. I’m planning an extension after my current layout area is finished.

6

It seems folks rarely address the age factor, and since you brought it up (I’m a year older than you) … I can relate. I have a good friend that has been a model builder and model railroader for most of his life, though he’s never built a layout. He’s mostly participated in modular clubs and has built many modules and diaromas. He’s just starting his room size layout and I know it’s going to be a masterpiece from the benchwork to the final tree. He’s 69 and tells me he’ll never finish it but the joy is in the journey.

I’m building my first layout also and had the benchwork completed, most of the wiring, trackwork etc. but was unhappy with about a third of it. You can hardly get in the train room this morning because I’ve ripped out all that I didn’t like and I’m in the process of redoing the backdrop before moving on to finishing the ‘new’ benchwork. Being retired maybe I’ll be running trains again around Christmas. Maybe.

Is there a way to ‘modify’ your existing layout with doing a total makeover? If not, and it truly bothers you, go for it.

JaRRell

7

I am 71 and the current HO layout will be the last. I started this one in 1988, it is done, scenery is done, operating plan works well, I use DCC and am completly happy with the railroad. I prefer operations over building. But that said, I can also say my original plan back in '88 was followed, it works, and even though I expanded it somewhat, it never lost its original thought or purpose. The layout is in an area 28ft by 35 ft, has three decks, all connected and follows a specific prototype, ATSF, and a specific date, 1989, and a specific location, ATSF Oklahoma Sub and Enid District.

Now, I will get a “wild hair” to redo something, yard, town, structure, etc. at times, which keeps my bulding interest satisfied, I add and delete rolling stock, but maintain a large inventory of equipment to run. I built my first 4 by 8 while in college in late 50’s, have had 4 other layouts since then before building the current one. The others were destroyed by moves.s

Oh, and I branched out into garden railroading in 1989 and have a pretty active backyard layout. I doubt I will ever tear the HO layout down to build another, possible exception, any sort of move to assisted living where I could work in a small portable layout. But health may change and I won’t be able to even do that.

Enjoy your layout, and when it no longer brings you joy, then you will know it is time to start over. Age should never be a factor, only health issues.

Bob

8

Good Morning!!!

THANK YOU all for your wonderful comments! I really appreciate knowing that I ain’t the “lone ranger” here, and others can “feel my pain”.

To reply to your postings… While I love to “run trains”, I confess I enjoy the design, building, tracklaying, and sorry to say wiring a whole lot. This layout was started in 1991 and has been a labor of love. When non MRs say, “when will it be finished” and I reply “never” they just can’t comprehend. Obviously there is always something to add or change.

I could achieve much of what I want by eliminating the top level, but it is an integral part of the layout and would probably mess up the main level more than the results would be worth. Also, the backdrop would ends at the top of the upper level and would have to of course be “fixed” to reach the main level. In short, A partial rebuild just won’t work.

As somewhat of a perfectionist (I sure ain’t perfect however), the quirks of the existing layout will bug me to the end… which means that I will never truly be happy with what I have.

From the above, it sounds like I will rebuild, but it looks like I am procrastinating until the right time…

Thanks all,

Mobilman44

9

Two particularly significant points have been brought to light here that perhaps would benefit from further discusion.

It is an unfortunate fact that many in the hobby must simply be classified as “builders” and not actual model railroaders, regardless of the quality of what they create. If these folks aren’t building a layout, they are not happy. Similar outlooks occur in a number of other hobbies where construction may be a part. Amateur astonomy is a classic one, where the end point of building your own telescope is to use it. Instead, for many, the building of the instrument becomes the challenge and objective. Once completed, the instrument is used for a look or two and the builder moves on to the next project. In truth, model railroading’s goal is to create a well scenicked, realistic looking, fully operational, layout, not to continuously partially build, tear down and build anew. While creating several distinctly new and ever improving new layouts over the course of many years is probably common to just about all model railroaders, simply flitting from one layout to next before completion is ever approached and full use is attained for any duration I look upon as being the sign of being a dabbler in the hobby, rather than one who is seriously involved.

Also as pointed out previously, the hobbyist’s age factor seems to be rarely addressed when considering starting a new layout. Since it generally takes around a decade to complete any reasonable-sized layout, if you wish to have something that’s fully operational and to some degree impressive to show friends and visitors, starting afresh (assuming you have a current layout that is already well along) beyond the age of 55-60 is not really a prudent idea, especially if you intend to work alone. Several older hobby big-wigs have recently torn down long existing, virtually completed, famous layouts and started over. H

10

I can definitely relate to this quandry , Turning sixty soon and retiring soon , I like my layout but something is not right, I hate the idea of stopping all the progress I’ve made and tearing into it. I can’t decide if I will do more on it or tear lots of it down and start over. [:(]

11

Seems to me you could:

  1. Leave your layout like it is and finish it.

  2. Modify or add on to your existing layout.

  3. Rip out your existing layout and build a new one.

Which do you want to do?

12

GAPPLEG, the “something is not right” is not to be rejected or suppressed. Finding fault with a basic idea is one thing, but even if small, niggling, eye-drawing little hmmms, add up to the point where the whole loses much of its appeal, there is usually only one prescription for a pastime; step over to the right path.

CNJ831 mentions astronomy…an intense and powerful interest of mine for 45 years. I purchased a nice telescope back in 1989, but not before I paced the streets of Toronto one night, around midnight, trying to come to a decision about the purchase. I have spend many evenings with the scope, sometimes watching the lightening eastern sky telling me it was going to be a long and numbing day ahead for me since I had missed a good night’s sleep.

I haven’t used the telescope more than once in three years. Model Railroading grabbed me the same way astronomy did. Now I am on my second layout in 2.5 years, and must be honest that I can see problems with even this, my best creation. I intend to learn more from this layout, though, because I want to build more confidence and skill, but also to really understand more about what makes a model railroad a good one. The collective good. Some will say there is no such thing since it is a personal hobby. I feel that there are some basic rules that, if followed or addressed, will assure the modeller of satisfaction with the end product. I need to think about those and to figure out how to apply them in what will become a third layout.

I will most assuredly go on to a third, and probably a final fourth once I get a good feel for where I will live the last few good years before the “home”. Each time I do this, I will have mentally rejected, cast aside, discounted, become dissatisfied with,…list goes on,…what I have at present.

It will be time to embark on a new adventure. That, to me, is what this hobby really is…a series

13

I think I remember an interview with Don Cassler where he said (somewhat tongue in cheek) “A layout is not nearly as much fun when its done.”

There is a lot to be said for starting over… I’ve done it at least twice in the past year! [;)]

George

14

[#ditto]

I know what you are going through,I’am 65 and have been in and out of model railroading sence I was about 13,At he present I’am piddleing around in “N” scale,It seems there is always someting new to build or try out.If I get the notion I’ll re-build.If I don’t like something I’ve done I tear it out and re-do it.So I guess my railroad will never be done!![:D][swg]

JIM

15

[quote user=“CNJ831”]

Two particularly significant points have been brought to light here that perhaps would benefit from further discusion.

It is an unfortunate fact that many in the hobby must simply be classified as “builders” and not actual model railroaders, regardless of the quality of what they create. If these folks aren’t building a layout, they are not happy. Similar outlooks occur in a number of other hobbies where construction may be a part…In truth, model railroading’s goal is to create a well scenicked, realistic looking, fully operational, layout, not to continuously partially build, tear down and build anew. While creating several distinctly new and ever improving new layouts over the course of many years is probably common to just about all model railroaders, simply flitting from one layout to next before completion is ever approached and full use is attained for any duration I look upon as being the sign of being a dabbler in the hobby, rather than one who is seriously involved.

Also as pointed out previously, the hobbyist’s age factor seems to be rarely addressed when considering starting a new layout. Since it generally takes around a decade to complete any reasonable-sized layout, if you wish to have something that’s fully operational and to some degree impressive to show friends and visitors (emphasis added), starting afresh (assuming you have a current layout that is already well along) beyond the age of 55-60 is not really a prudent idea, especially if you intend to work alone. Several older hobby big-wigs have recently torn down long existing, virtually completed, famous layouts and started over. However, in each case they have a group of talented individuals assisting them in the new project’s construction, cutting the time necessary to completion to probably just a few years. The average hobbyist does not have that luxury.

16

Fred,

He’s always like that. Makes sense a lot of time though and he can model. Just have to read with thick skin.

17

Should you keep what you’ve built and enjoy it, or should you tear it out and start over?

The answer is, “it depends”.

In my case, all layout construction effort is a means to the end I enjoy the most: realistic operation. Starting over for me would be for one reason: to get better operation opportunities on the next layout.

But then there are builders, and building the layout is the most fun. Once it’s “done” you may be sitting there wondering why this finished layout isn’t very fun. Then by all means tear it out and build again!

Enough has changed in the hobby that rebuilding may also be attractive even to someone like me who enjoys running trains realistically rather than all the building. Allen McClelland’s V&O layout was 40+ years old, for example, so updating to a layout built using modern methods was appealing to him. Some examples of hobby changes in the last couple of decades include:

  1. DCC allows independently tuning loco performance unlike anything you can get on straight DC. If the layout was built with DC in mind (no return loops cuz they’re hard to wire, lots of light-guage cab control wiring to save money), then starting over and moving to DCC could be an attractive option.

  2. Rapid high-quality turnout construction techniques now exist like the Fast Tracks jigs or the Central Valley turnout kits. Excellent handlaid turnout performance is now possible, with minimal extra cost in time. But this means throwing out your commercial turnouts on the next layout and replacing them with rapid handlaid ones.

  3. Sectional layout concepts like dominoes allow building the layout in sections at the workbench, allowing for you to do your very-best possible work in comfort. This means that next layout could look and function better than ever if constructed in this manner.

You may also learn enough in the hobby that your preferences and approach changes, such that the old layout just doesn’t cut it any more. Tha

18

I think it’s about: “are you satisfied with your layout?” Sometimes i look back at my experience modeling the past 30 years (and 6 layouts later) that i finally had to ask myself: Is my work done to my satisfaction? Can I really improve on something? Do i really want to tear it all down and start again? Well, weither i like it or not, i’m to the point that this is where i’m at with my layout and the hobby in general and i just can’t bring myself to tearing it all down and starting all over. Sure it would be nice to have that dream layout room say a 25’ x 60’ to start a new layout in, but then again, i’m just going to have to be satisfied with my layout, the space available, and what i’ve accomplished so far.

I’m also getting to the age where starting over just isn’t going to be an option anymore. My body isn’t going to allow me to do some of the things required for building and wiring a layout and mentally, I really don’t want to start a new one. I guess what i’m trying to say is: be satisfied with what you have. Sure, everyone would do some things different, but on the other hand when i look at the hours and hours of labor i’ve put into this hobby, It looks like a really nice model railroad and I’m complimented by others that come over to see it. I’m my own worst critic you know, and most people in this hobby critisize themselves that way too! When i get to the point when I can’t work on my layout again especially rebuilding a new one, there’s always a MRR club i can join… chuck

19

Hi again,

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. They all are valuable to me.

The building of this layout has given me a lot of experience and pleasure and I’ve used new techniques and frankly learned a lot. I also have had the “opportunity” to learn what I really like or don’t like with what I have today. It’s ironic that some of the things I would like to change are probably the best modeling I have done (upper level trackage with structures, background, and rockwork). Ha, so be it.

I believe I will “finish” this layout and operate it for a period of time and then “tear down and build anew”. A couple of reasons are that I always like to finish what I start and, the final touches such as roads, signage, and populating the layout will give me new experience that I can build on when/if I tear down and build another.

But there is another factor that I was hesitant to mention earlier, and that is my wife (she is a true encourager of the hobby!!!) and I are part time caregivers for her invalid Mother, and that takes up 4 days a week of my time. I suspect this situation will change in the next year or two at the most, and then I will not have the lack of available time as an excuse.

One last comment… Some of us view the building of a layout as either “the end justifies the means”, or “the means justifies the end”. Truthfully, I love both the building and the operation of the layout, and that is a good reason why I have been at this for so very long.

By the way, this hobby has been a lifesaver for some of us, and for me the trains have been my own personal “pacifier” when the outside world is treating me badly!!!

ENJOY,

Mobilman44

20

Fred W - I often speak the unvarnished truth here, based on a lot of experience in the hobby and this can often ruffles feathers and makes me rather unpopular. But like it or not, I stand by the fact that there are folks who are model railroaders, those that are strictly model builders, some who simply collect model trains and there absolutely are a decided percentage of dabblers, folks who can not get beyond track-on-plywood, or a bit of marginal scenicking, before tearing everything down and starting over…endless times. Regardless of any claims to the contrary, those foregoing terms are not all synonymous with one another, nor does “model railroader” encompass them all as a proper descriptive term. One may claim it does but I think it is more a reflection of the sad fact that in today’s society far too many folks seem to feel that simply saying they are a such-and-such actually makes them one.

If you want to see what the term “model railroader”, or being one, honestly means, I advise taking a few NMRA layout tours when they have one of their regional conventions in your area. You’ll be quick to discover that guys who have built terrific, finished, layouts and enjoy their accomplisments over many years, are a far more commonplace than the pages of MR might lead you to think.

CNJ831