I lean toward the opinion slant posted by CSX as well. I’ve met and talked with Tony on a couple of occasions and found him to be a really nice guy. Likewise, I certainly admire his modeling knowledge and abilities. However, while his column years back often offered some really valuable insight into various approaches and aspects of hands-on modeling and layout design, in recent years it has come to take on too much of a flavor of “this month’s varied and irrelevant thoughts of Tony K” as the column contains little, if anything, of practical value. Nice reading for the armchair folks, perhaps, but really space that would have been better off devoted to some modeling topic. I really don’t care about how Tony feels regarding the trains and Christmases of his youth, or whether two fellas have opposing views on the subject of staging yards (which plenty of people do!). I think that MR has shrunk to far too few pages these days to be devoting space to simply someone’s reminisces.
I have never met Mr.K , however, I find his column to be infinitly arrogant in this respect. He assumes that there are certain minimum standards that must be met for the reader to be a ‘modeler’.
I shudder at the thought of having to have paperwork to properly run my train. I never visited his former lay-out but the fact that it no longer exists does not make it the watermark that all of us poor un-washed should aspire to.I think his column has contributed more than most to the mental truama suffered by many model railroaders who must now hide their non-conforming ,out of era, or inacurate to prototype lay-outs for fear of …what? That a rivit counter will critisize it.
I am sure that the column has advanced the hobby,but at what cost to the underlying point,enjoyment ?
Since I posted the item to begin with, let me say at one time I too thought Tony got a little over the top. But after all these years, I realized he was simply setting a watermark to shoot at. He caused me to do a little better than I might have. There were times I wanted to take the easy way out on a project, but Tony’s attitude caused me to re-examine and rethink, and in most cases for the better.
I have been around him several times at NMRA functions and found his dry humor refreshing. Bottom line, he caused me to raise the bar on my own layout(s) and they were better for it. One thing some seem to have forgotten, you are under no compulsion to follow his advice. There is no law that will come to your door and confiscate your layout because you didn’t follow his advice. No one will repossess your layout and throw you in jail. One person said they hated all the paperwork. So do I to some degree, but I have used the desktop on my dispatcher’s desk to replace a lot of paper work, and I wouldn’t be without the car cards, waybills, etc. So I choose to thank him for the challenge he gave me over the years. You of course are not compelled to do anything he suggests.
I do find it small of people to complain about the standards Tony has set when they are either too lazy or just don’t care to follow them. But there are a lot of modelers I know who are also willing to use his ideas and thoughts that fit a need or our layouts. Thus again, I thank Tony.
My feelings about Tony and his columns are similar to yours, while I don’t always agree, I do respect him, his views and his experiance, even if his experiance is only a little longer/broader than my own.
I have noted before, in similar conversations on here, how anyone who sets high standards for themselves is often seen by some as being a snob, or as expecting everyone to follow those standards. What has happened to our culture that has made achievement and excellence dirty words?
And, Tony does challenge us to do better, and to better define what better is. My definition and his are not the same, but I still have great respect for the work he has done in the hobby.
I have never met him personally, but have corresponded with him by E-mail on several occasions. Once, in fact, to offer him my solution to a problem he was having. His response was friendly and positive and he was completely open to my ideas - which happened to be slighly out of the “main stream”.
I read his column every month, not with bated breath, but as part of my normal “absorbing” of each new issue. Sometimes it is good, sometimes I agree, sometimes not so much so. Since I am not a person easily impressed by “celebrity”, I see his column as opinion and information, offered up for my review and possable benifit - nothing more, nothing less.
I couldn’t agree more. I set a very high standard for myself and I don’t agree with the close enough or good enough attitude some people have. You can ALWAYS do better. I probably got that from building model cars, restoring real cars and entering shows. I very rarely comment on threads like that because I usually come across as a snob or worse, lol.
I find these somewhat interesting, in that Allen McClelland, who is highly regarded by most, promoted a “good enough” philosophy for the actual modeling in order to complete the railroad to a reasonable level and operate it. Likewise, it often seems Tony follows a “good enough” philosophy in the actual modeling (note, no where do I say “poor quality”; his “good enough” is actually very good). As best I can tell from his written work, the “high standards” are in fact operational goal rather than modeling standards.
I’m making this point becuase a “high standard” that one must have X scale miles of railroad, running TT&TO operations, with N operators is not a standard. It is a preference. And should not be promoted as a minimum standard. That is what I think the issue people have. MR, & Tony by his writings, are promoting a size, cost, and complexity standard that is simply un realistic for most people. It has created the impression that i
When I mean a high standard I mean in my modelling and the equipment I purchase for my model railroad. There is no standard for X amount of miles of track and the amount of operators you can use but there should be a certain standard if you want to call your layout a model railroad. A 4x8 figure 8 with a plastic Life Like mountain sitting on a painted piece of wood isn’t a layout. A 4x8 figure 8 that has a ton of detail would be, magazine quality detail not “good enough” detail. Same goes for rolling stock and locomotives. There is a lot of junk out there that some people really believe is good enough for them but I wouldn’t give you a dime for them. Give me a Kato or a Atlas Classic, Silver or Gold series loco any day but don’t try to convince me a Life Like or a Bachmann is just as good because you think so. I don’t mean you but people in general. I’ve always found that you will get a better finished product if you initially spend a little more, make as much as you can yourself and stay away from the cheap stuff that will cause you headaches and frustration down the road.
You missed the point - the point is “high personal standards for themselves” - not “demanding” that everyone else do the same.
I have a personal set of standards and goals I have set for my modeling, I have considerable experiance and a proven track record working with my hands, with model trains and in other trades/crafts.
If asked, I will discuss my standards and goals and explain why they are important to ME.
Any such statements about those standards and goals will no doubt reflect my belief in their value.
That does not imply that I expect everyone else to agree or to strive for those same standards/goals.
BUT, the insecure, small minded people among us would rather I (or Tony) not voice our goals and standards as it makes them uncomfortable - even if we never said or implied that they should do the same. They assume that just because we voice our preferences, that we are somehow expecting/demanding them from everyone - nonsense! Grow a spine and be comfortable with your own chices in life.
Tony’s job is to be a commentator on the hobby and the various directions it takes as it evolves. That job is going to be influenced by his personal choices. His opinion would be of no value if it was not based on personal knowledge and experiance.
I respectfully suggest you CAREFULLY re-read my previous post - I did not hold Tony or his views up on a pedestal - quite the opposite, I stated how and why I repect his opinion as a peer in this hobby.
As for specific standards, mine are very much out of the norm. Things I consider very important are of no importance to many modelers today. Many things considered “cutting edge” today by most are of no interest to me. Example - I don’t like/want sound in HO or smaller scales - Tony loves it.
And I repeat, why are those who set high goals and standards FOR THEMSELVES seen as being snobs? It is the downfall of our culture to be sure.
If what Allen McLelland built was “good enough” then I want to be “good enough”. He didn’t mean shoddy, or poorly made. It is more that hsi streets aren;t detailed down to every crack in the sidewalk and newspapers in th gutters. No pigeon dropping decorating the roof of every structure. Stuff liek that. Detailed, realistic, but not super duper detailed.
I’d like to see ONE isntance where Tony has said or hinted that you are somehow less of a modeler if you don;t have a 20x40 basement with 15 or more miles of track and use TT&TO operations - keep in mind the AM did not use TT&TO.
I’d also suggest that railroads liek the AM, V&O, and Tony’s new NKP didn;t just spring up instnatly because they dropped megabucks on the construction. It took YEARS to get there. There are many issues with today’s society - instnat gratification is one of those. Sure you cna have a basement empire tomorrow - if you have the money to pay someoen to make it for you. The restof us work up to it over time.
And the whole idea that model railraoding is an inexpensive hobby - and i know everyone’s goign to pop up with things like “well you cna get dirt for free - and make trees out of the weeds you pulled fromt he garden” and all those sort of things, but face it, this hobby is not now nor has EVER been inexpensive. Today you look back and see brass Shays for $20 in the 50’s - well friend, $20 in the 50’s was a good chunk of change. And current plastic locos are in general better detailed and better running than 50 year old brass. Sure we had a cheap period - all those cheap Tyco, Life-Like, and Bachmann piece of junk from the 70’s - which I say did far more harm than good to the hobby as people bought them, ran them til they broke (usually by the next day) and figured if this is what this hobby is all about, I’m done. I suppose this makes me some sort of elitist - well, I am not wealthy. I cannot just go plunk down whatever cash on somethign I want. I have to plan carefully how I
Hey, I started with Tyco in 1971 and had a lot of fun with it on my first two layouts. Sure, I moved on to craftsman kits from Central Valley, LaBelle Woodworking, etc plus some scratch building But it really was Tyco, Atlas, and Model Die Casting that got me going in this hobby. Even though I’m in S now I still have it all. And I have fond memories of those early layouts.
As for Tony, how can you get upset with a guy who admits the hobby would have been better off if S and TT were the major scales instead of HO and N?
I had plenty of that too when I started out. Luckily my Dad also has some older die-cast Mantua locos that really ran nice, and we bought some AHM/Rivarossi locos that were also smooth. My Tyco Santa Fe F unit, not so much. It didn’t get used much, either.
As for the scales question, I think he’s on to something there. TT would be perfect - bigger then N but smaller than HO. Big enough to detail without using a microscope. Big enough to fit decoders in easily. And no special scale rules needed, any old architect’s scale or machinist’s rule has 1/10" graduations. Not to mention easy to do the math in your heat. Quick what’s 145 inches divided by 87.1? [(-D]
Maybe it is just my poor knowledge of the English language, but I never found Tony´s column to be patronizing or snobbish - just thought provoking.
I am still trying to figure out, what an old school modeler is supposed to be, and what modern guys do differently. Will someone please help me with that?
Me too. It can;t be technique - like using foam and caulk and so forth, because in a recent article Tony mentioned using caulk for his track.
Maybe he meant modeling modern era vs the 40’s and 50’s. However, it’s still the most popular. In Model Railroader int he 50’s, people weren’t modeling then current railroads, they were modeling turn of the 20th century - remember all those Central Valley car kits, among others? Seems like there’s an almost steady 50 year lag - probably corresponding to the average age of model railroaders, many of whom model their youth.
So anyone who disagrees with the stated opinion is insecure and small minded? Or perhaps I should “grow a spine” and NOT express a differing opinion? Only those who agree can express an opinion? And who said anyone shouldn’t set high standards for themselves? All I said was one persons preferences should not be considered the standards for another. If you re-read my posts, you’ll see that no where do I consider Tony a “snob.” As I said in an earlier post, I don’t agree with everything he says, but his is the first column I read each month. And no where do I say that Tony says you have to do X, Y, & Z. What I do take issue with is the 2nd and 3rd level effects where others draw those conclusions and then extend them as a standard for others.
Of course since I have no spine, then I can’t express an opinion that differs from the prevailing standard.
I agree…I don’t always agree with Tony’s thoughts-never did and never will but,I still enjoy his column.
Don’t take it to heart…I got smashed and bashed one time because I made anti G&D statements and I was given a good thrashing by e-mail because I said every time I see pictures of F&SM I 'm reminded of the Popeye movie. .
Randy, that statement is a bit misleading. I was around in the hobby back in the 50’s and the great majority of fellas were modeling either the late steam era, or the then current transition era. The bulk of the popular locos and rollingstock kits of the day were also predominantly for those eras, certainly not the turn of the century. Even in the 50’s, the percentage of hobbyists modeling pre WWI was less than 15%, at least according to the MR readers’ surveys.
Concerning what constitutes “old school modelers”, I’d say that title describes hobbyists who were/are skilled in a very wide range of crafts, ones that were essential to really be a model railroader back in the day. They built whatever was necessary for the layout, often ranging from kit locomotives, down through all th
I am still trying to figure out, what an old school modeler is supposed to be, and what modern guys do differently. Will someone please help me with that?
Me too. It can;t be technique - like using foam and caulk and so forth, because in a recent article Tony mentioned using caulk for his track.
Maybe he meant modeling modern era vs the 40’s and 50’s. However, it’s still the most popular. In Model Railroader int he 50’s, people weren’t modeling then current railroads, they were modeling turn of the 20th century - remember all those Central Valley car kits, among others? Seems like there’s an almost steady 50 year lag - probably corresponding to the average age of model railroaders, many of whom model their youth.
–Randy
Randy, that statement is a bit misleading. I was around in the hobby back in the 50’s and the great majority of fellas were modeling either the late steam era, or the then current transition era. The bulk of the popular locos and rollingstock kits of the day were also predominantly for those eras, certainly not the turn of the century. Even in the 50’s, the percentage of hobbyists modeling pre WWI was less than 15%, at least according to the MR readers’ surveys.
Concerning what constitutes “old school modelers”, I’d say that title describes hobbyists who were/are skilled in a very wide range of crafts, ones that were essential to really be a mod
I object t to the characterization of people who don’t aspire to someone else’s modelling practices as 'small minded." Maybe, though, I’m small minded for thinking that…?
I read it for what it is, an opinion column. I take the thoughts, and suggestions as his, ponder them, keep the ones I like, and move on. Not really a subject I find myself losing sleep over, or keeping a grudge against a guy who does things differently than I.
Having a different opinion than one of the gurus of model railroading is an unalienable right, voicing it in an undue manner not.
I am sorry that this discussion has got a touch too personal. It should not have, as it is only detrimental to either side. Where would our hobby be, without the variety of views and opinions?