While browsing throught these messages, I noticed an inference about mounting Tortoise switches using latex caulk (I think it was Randy). Has this really been done and if so, how has it lasted over the long run. It sure sounds like a good idea for tight spots where you can’t fit a screwdriver if you need to remove the Tortoise. I was going to use Velcro but if this method works, it should give a more permanent and secure mounting.
Ron K.
Well, if you check my web site you’ll see that I screw the tortoise to a small square of perf board, and then make a recess in the top of my foam with a router attachment on the Dremel (holding the shop vac hose in the other hand to suck up the dust), and cut out the center. The Tortoise on a board drops in and is level with the surrounding foam. Not my original idea - I got it after seeign pictures ont he NorCal FREEMO modular group’s web site. Their recesses are absolutely perfect - I don’t know what they use to make them. I’ve found it’s not too critical, so long as there is a surrounding ledge to hold the torise, a little oversize or not perfectly quare doesn’t hurt anything - but still I’d like to know how they do it perfectly. I put a dab of caulk on the edges to hold it in place, but I can slide back the joiners and lift out the turnout, and pop the Tortoise out fromt he bottom if I ever need to (after seeing the ones at the club I used to belong to, plus other large home and club layouts report literally hundreds of Tortoise in use with maybe ONE failure in 7 years, I’m not worried).
That said, I have been toying witht he idea of simply using caulk to glue the Tortoise on the bottom of the foam and jus use the normal hole through the foam for the drive rod. Heck of a lot easier and faster, it just means the Tortoise would hang down past the edge of the 1x4 benchwork (from top to the bottom of the edge connector they are a bit over 3 1/2 inches tall). I’ve been meaning to head to the basement and take my test Tortoise (one I’ve had a good 13 years, used and abused by manually pushing the arm back and forth, disassembled many times, etc - and it STILL works, just a touch noisier than a new one) and caulk it to the bottom of the layout somewhere to see how sturdy it is. I’m hoping the caulk is tacky enough to hold it in place, or maybe I will need to run a strip of tape over it til the caulk dries. Since it’s tacky but not hard for 15-20 minutes, it should be easy to align the Tortoise. I will test t
Randy, read your ideas on tortoises a number of times and will use that basic idea. On my coalyard, which is on a mountain flat over the mainline I will have 1" foam over 1/2" plywood. The tortoise will mount on a piece of 1/4" ply under the foam and on top of the 1/2" with a hole thru the 1/2" plywood (need that extra 1/2" for clearance over main line). The wire to the turnout will go thru the foam. I was planning on using Velcro to hold the tortoise to the 1/4" ply but am concerned on how well the velcro will hold up. I like the idea of caulk.
By the way, how do you ballast and scenic the area of the tortoise liftout without everything gluing tight?
Ron K.
Easy answer - I haven’t ballasted anything yet. But there’s roadbed over the Tortoise mount, and if I find materials seep down the openings I’ll just put a layer of tape over them to seal them up.
–Randy
Permanent? I don’t know about permanent mounting. I like the idea of Vel-Cro because NOTHING in model railroading is permanent. I like the idea of being able to pull the switch machine off, stick another piece of Vel-cro on the new machine and, VOILA!
If you REALLY want a permanent mounting, instead of the latex caulk, you could try construction adhesive, but I would tend to agree that nothing in model railroading is permanent. I would mount in such a way that it could easily be removed.
Mike
Thus my desire to experiment with caulk. If I can easily peel up track and roadbed fastened with caulk, I can certaianly peel off a Tortoise. I just wonder if it will be stable enough given a constant force to one side or the other. This is why I am planning an experiment.
–Randy
Well, you mention tight spots… So I’m assuming the tried and true (and removable and changeable) method of screws won’t work for you…??? I’d suggest that’s the way to go, normally.
The problem is that I suspect anything “weak” enough to be removable without much damage will not deal with the constant torque exerted by the motor that well. I use latex caulk a lot, and wouldn’t guess it will hold up long with tortoises - at least not without shifting around enough to cause problems. I remain keen to hear the results of your experiment!
I mounted mine to a piece of wood under the layout and then used caulk to glue the wood to the layout. The tortoise can be removed easily by removing the scews, but the mounting is still there - very easy to put the tortoise back (or a new one). Not necessarily a good solution for space contrained applications though.
-T
Yeah… My guess is that the caulk solution’s viability is directly related to the surface area of the bond. So a 4"x4" piece of ply would hold better than just the tortoise itself… a 6"x6" piece, better than 4x4, etc… Just making a SWAG based on my many uses of caulk for other purposes… I’d throw out 3"x3" as a likely point of stability, but less as questionable… YMMV of course.
As you say, you could quickly run into space problems using that method though, even at 3"x3". I know an overhead “footprint” of 3x3 would certainly cause me trouble.
I say space-contrained because the last Tortoise I need to install is in the area of the layout you need to duck under for access. If it was along the back wall, I wouldn’t care much how far below the wood they would hang. With the top mounting, just the very bottom plus the edge card area protrudes below the foam, and this is well up inside the 1x4 benchwork. I can’t screw them on the bottom - there’s nothing to screw to, I use JUST foam, no plywood under it.
It may work better to keep using my perfboard squares and glue those to the bottom of the foam with caulk or something else, it only ads an additional 1/16" tot he depth, not a big deal. ANd I could unscrew the Tortoise from the perf board OR pry the whole thing off, whichever is easier - with caulk I’d think the whole thing would come off easily, with a stronger adhesive it would be easier to unscrew.
–Randy
You could attach a piece of 1/8 inch wood to the underside of the foam with Liquid Nails, then mount the switch machine to that.
At about 2:15pm EST I took my experimental Tortoise, applied a box and cross bead of caulk to the top, and stuck it to the underside of the foam in an otherwise unused area between joists. Amazingly enough, it was tacky enough to hold the Tortoise against its own weight, at least until I crawled out fron underneath, shut off the lights, and walked to the door. I haven’t been back to check it yet, it might have fallen off 2 seconds after I walked upstairs. It slid around easily - getting final alignment this way will be easy, but it will have to be set dead center as any pressure to either side WILL shift it. I’ll check progress in a few minutes - it will have been in place for a hour then.
–Randy
Update, checked at 4:15 PM, 2 hours after initial placement. Caulk is still not dry, I can move the Tortoise around still. But it didn’t fall off by its own weight. Drying time is probably extended because of a lack of air flow. Also checked - the edge card end of the Tortoise does NOT project down below the 1x4 benchwork. Wires attached to it would, but the machine itself is still within the 1x4 (barely).
–Randy
I typically find caulk requires “overnight” to be fully dry. Whether that’s 12 hours, 20, 9 or other, I don’t really know… I typically work on the layout in the evening, and don’t return until the next evening. I do know that on weekends when I’ve used caulk during the course of the day, it’s still been distinctly tacky and movable at the 4-6 hour mark…
Hmm, when I use it for roadbed and track, especially track, with free air exposure, it turns completely clear within an hour or two, and a simple nudge won’t shift it. It did take a VERY long time to dry where I used it to glue in a foam block where I removed a turnout and a Tortoise, there was very little air access in that situation.
–Randy
What about using a Forstner bit the size of the Tortoise to put a small recess in the bottom of the foam - enough to clear the wiring? Drill the through hole for the throw wire and use it as the center point for the Forstner bit from below.
Brad
Sort of the reverse of what I do now - that could work. I’m not really worried about it over most of the layout space - there will be a lower deck under most of it. An alternative is needed for the lower level - either a different machine with a lower profile, like maybe the Aspenmodel or the Lemanco type, or mountign the Tortoise entirely on top of the table surface for the hidden staging area. In those areas I can;t have anything below the wood frame, storage items in Rubbermaid containers will be under the entire layout along that wall and there can;t be anything that might catch when sliding them in and out.
–Randy
One of the things I’ve done with Tortoises is to put double sided foam tape on them to stick them to the bottom of the layout. Then drive a couple of #6 x 1/2"screws to hold them permanent. It makes it much easier when trying to put the screws in, especially in tight places. I actually forgot to put screws into one and the foam tape held it in place for a few weeks until I found it. Not sure how long it might have lasted.
24 hour update ( a little late, but I was at a client site all day):
With force, I can still move the whole machine around. The caulk appears completely dry though. I can puhe operating arm back and forth without moving the machine though - so I doubt the force of the spring wire holding the points would actually shift anything. Keeping in mind this is a highly used (and abused) Tortoise (I’ve taken it apart numerous times, moved it by hand so fast that the gears stripped, etc - yet it still moves and holds nicely under proper power, these things are darn near indestructible!), I hooked jumper to it and ran it on a full 12 volts. It’s quieter thatn the ones I have mounted through the foam as seen in my pictures - probably because the caulk between the foam and Tortoise acts to isolate it somewhat. At a slightly reduced voltage, such as with indicator LEDs in series witht he motor, it would be even quieter - the ones I have wired to a Switch-It thrown with a bit less than 12 volts across the motor, and this abused unit with a full 12 volts is a bit quieter.
Phase 1 of the test is a success. Phase 2 - can I remove it coming up next. I forsee no problem there. Phase 3, I will stick it to my half piece of foam I used to test tracklaying and ballasting, drill a hole, and actually connect it to a turnout. Or just use this method on the sole remaining turnout I need to finihis section of the layout - if it doesn;t work out, the hole through the foam would be completely cut out anyway to make room for the drop in from the top method.
–Randy
–Randy