How does one know which trackside signs (not signals) to use (for what purposes) and where they would go on a layout when many prototype signs consist only of a letter, number or a symbol of one kind or another and no wording?
My GN freight layout, c. 1945-1955, is a small 5’ x 7’ with a double reverse loop, five track crossings by road, a wayside siding and two freight depot sidings, so there would be a need for only a modicum of signage along its short route.
I already have crossbucks where the roads cross the tracks. What other non-operational signs would be appropriate and practical for the GN line in my era? Color photos with interpretations (uses) would be most helpful.
Best bet would be to contact the GN Historical Society for specific answers for your GN layout but generally railroads used similar, if not identical, signs for things.
There were signs for yard limits, approaching a station coul be just a single “S” and a crossing could be denoted as a single “W”. The Southern Ry used a sign like a vertical paddle painted with stripes and a dot to show the long, long, short, long crossing signal. Others were “SS” for spring switch and numerous others. I’m sure google will answer in more detain but you really need to check the GNHS
I contacted a GNRHS officer last week. His only reply was to join a Yahoo group forum, not exactly what I’m looking for.
I may dig a little deeper on the site, however, but having thoroughly screened it for other information a couple of years ago, I doubt it has what I need.
The style and/or colours of the signs will vary from one railroad to the next, but here are a few examples on my freelanced roads.
This is a sign alerting the operator in a plow, flanger, or spreader to obstacles ahead, indicating that, where applicable, the wing plow on the left should be retracted and the flanger lifted for two obstructions…
…as the bridge ahead has fire barrel platforms on the left side of the tracks, and guard rails between the running rails.
This sign is similar, but with wing plows retracted due to the tunnel ahead, and flanger blades lifted due to guard rails on a bridge just beyond the far end of the tunnel. The two stripes on each indicate that there are two distinct obstructions of each…
This sign will appear after restrictions have been passed…
…the “C” indicating that the restrictions have been cleared
This is a speed limit sign, the RS indicating Resume Speed, while the upper figure applies to passenger trains, the lower one for freights…
This sign alerts the train crew of a restriction ahead, which will be shown in the rule book (I probably should have included a mile-post number on the post, too, or a reference number to the rule book). Experienced crews will generally know what the restriction is anyways…
I am a little disappointed in the response of the GN historical society. I suspect they have resources in their archives that do answer these questions to some extent. Having said that I know the CNW Historical Society’s archives have been hampered by stay at home and other restrictive orders (or just precautions that are self imposed) during the pandemic and perhaps that prevened the GN folks from being more helpful.
For example employee rulebooks should show examples of some trackside signs and what they mean. The track maintenance and Bridge and Building departments likely also had books and manuals showing their standards for trackside signs.
A few things from my Consolidated Code of Operating Rules (1980 so BN era not GN)
Speed control signs, Yellow and at an upward angle. If two numbers, higher is for passenger trains. BUT the Code says that on former Great Northern track Rule 240W has two upward angle signs in white with black letters
Upper one is P - 79, lower if F - 50. Passenger and freight obviously but it also says the F speed limit is for passenger trains hauling freight equipment. If there are not two signs and it just says F, such as F -25, that is the speed limit for all trains. Angled sign with yellow and black stripes (which are straight up and down) is a restricting sign so the lower speed is now effective, and it is placed two miles from the sign showing the reduced speed. When speed can be resumed, the point of resumption is where the sign showing a higher speed is placed BUT the entire train must be beyond that sign.
So there is a little GN info for you.
Other signs I can think of. Most railroads had a little V shaped sign for where a flanger should be lifted such as at a grade crossing. Other railroads had other symbols or signs for that. The CGW had odd little starburst type signs.
I am a little disappointed in the response of the GN historical society. I suspect they have resources in their archives that do answer these questions to some extent. Having said that I know the CNW Historical Society’s archives have been hampered by stay at home and other restrictive orders (or just precautions that are self imposed) during the pandemic and perhaps that prevened the GN folks from being more helpful.
For example employee rulebooks should show examples of some trackside signs and what they mean. The track maintenance and Bridge and Building departments likely also had books and manuals showing their standards for trackside signs.
A few things from my Consolidated Code of Operating Rules (1980 so BN era not GN)
Speed control signs, Yellow and at an upward angle. If two numbers, higher is for passenger trains. BUT the Code says that on former Great Northern track Rule 240W has two upward angle signs in white with black letters
Upper one is P - 79, lower if F - 50. Passenger and freight obviously but it also says the F speed limit is for passenger trains hauling freight equipment. If there are not two signs and it just says F, such as F -25, that is the speed limit for all trains. Angled sign with yellow and black stripes (which are straight up and down) is a restricting sign so the lower speed is now effective, and it is placed two miles from the sign showing the reduced speed. When speed can be resumed, the point of resumption is where the sign showing a higher speed is placed BUT the entire train must be beyond that sign.
So there is a little GN info for you.
Other signs I can think of. Most railroads had a little V shaped sign for where a flanger should be lifted such as at a grade crossing. Other railroads had other symbols or signs for that. The CGW had odd little starburst type signs.<
All of mine are homemade, Ian, using sheet styrene for the sign portion and strip styrene for the posts. After painting them, I use dry transfers for any lettering or striping.
The link you provided was quite helpful, too, so I saved the picture charts from it for future reference.
Tichy Train Group does offer a number of ready-to-use signs, for both railroad and highway/street use.
In my experience it’s rare for a railroad historical society to be set up to immediately reply to someone’s e-mail question. A few answer questions in their quarterly publications. Remember these are all volunteers, and someone who is good at running a website or editing a publication may not be an expert on the railroad’s history.
All the answers would be in a GN employee timetable / rulebook - from that specific era if possible, but I suspect the signs stayed the same for decades.
The beginning of the years your modeling may be before the GN adopted the Consolidated Code and still had their own rule book. I have one from the early 1940s, but it’s temporarily in storage for a move.
A GN employee timetable from the era might have roadway signs depicted in the special instructions. Many railroads in later years did that, but I’m not sure about the 1940s or GN specifically.
The caveat is that the newer the source the less likely its applicable to 1895. Many things in 2020 didn’t even exist in 1895 or weren’t even considered.
I have a copy of Model Railroader Books “Trackwork and Lineside Detail for your Model Railroad”, which has a good amount of info + photos that you might find useful. None specific GN, but there are dimensioned drawings from other R/R’s plus generic examples.
The book is out of print and I bought a used copy from a Dealer. Hope this helps, Paul
The Yahoo Groups suggestion isn’t as good as it used to be. Most of the model railroading related Yahoo Groups moved to groups.io because of Yahoo’s policys and attempts to collect serious money for hosting the Groups. The groups.io search also works a lot better than Yahoo’s ever did.
A bounce to this thread on trackside signs, as I have a question about prototype usage on the “Clear Point” sign.
OK, getting this out of the way, I know what it means (the point on a track beyond which rolling stock will not foul an adjacent track), and I can find several companies actively selling these signs to the railroad industry, but…I am having trouble finding prototype images of these signs in-situ trackside. Probaly bad google-fu on my part.
The reason I want to know about this sign is bass-ackwards as usual in my case - over the spring I was chopping into little pieces decades worth of sub-par/broken details from my scrapbox with an eye to detailing scrap-yard piles and gondola loads. Usable bits like windows, doors, chimneys, pumps, roof finales, etc. had previously been extracted and saved, and now it was time for a second pass sifting thru the remainder before sending it on to the mighty nippers. As the question implies, I came across among other items a nicely made sign on a post, about 1.25ft x 2ft, which I just painted up and then wondered where I could use it trackside. Searching around came up with cool diagrams and catalog illustrations of Clear(ence) point signs, but no prototype images so far. So, sign detail first, then figure what to put on the sign…
So, who’s got the “mad search skillz” as we used to say at the turn of the century. Thanks.
And you will probably have trouble finding those signs. In many cases the spur/siding has derails on it which are well away from the clearance point.
I have seen ties painted a color to mark clearance point, but can’t remember seeing a sign for a clearance point in my years working for a real railroad.
“Close clearance” signs, warning of impaired side clearance fo someone riding on the side of a car or engine were common in industries.
[quote user=“dehusman”]
And you will probably have trouble finding those signs. In many cases the spur/siding has derails on it which are well away from the clearance point.
I have seen ties painted a color to mark clearance point, but can’t remember seeing a sign for a clearance point in my years working for a real railroad.
“Close clearance” signs, warning of impaired side clearance fo someone riding on the side of a car or engine were common in industries.
