Train museums....FRIEND or FOE

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

IF a train museum accepts donations of R.R. artifacts that any reasonable minded person would consider suspicious would you consider the staff / powers-that-be…

A. True Railfans preserving items that would otherwise be lost.

B. Honest

C. Dishonest

D. Greedy

E. Self serving

F. Totally Clueless

G. It bothers me to have this subject on this forum and this is why…

Is it TABOO to say anything negative about a R.R. museum? It shouldn’t be.

I have first hand knowledge of a museum accepting misappropriated items and I have notified the staff of this fact. They DID NOT investigate my allegations. Since one museum has done this I’m willing to speculate that others have also been guilty of this type of behavior.

We have corruption in our: government…business…charities…unions…religions…hospitals…etc. etc. etc.

Are train museums the ONLY organizations on earth to remain lily-white?

If you also have knowledge of this type of conduct at a museum and say nothing, I would consider you an accomplice…SHAME-ON-YOU.

OLD DAD[}:)]

2

Any train museum usually has a crack staff that investigates each piece brought in.Thats where I go sometimes to find out info on stuff that I see or thats sent to me.Also if someone is missing a rr artifact the first people that are alerted besides the law are local and national museums.So be good and support your local RR museum.
stay safe
Joe

3

What’s with OLD DAD? His last three threads all deal with stealing, trespassing and now disposing of stolen goods.

What’s the deal here?

Dave H.

4

I wasnt sure either but if anyone is caught stealing from anyone(especially a rr or rr museum) I hope they get busted.
stay safe
Joe

5

I agree with Dave H. What’s the deal? We all know that trespassing and stealing is not right. I have taken photos of trains and have been on company property, and I have been invited to see the cabs of locos. I have even been invited to watch rails being welded. So the problem with trespassing is more than likely it was something the individual was doing to get in trouble. Goes back to respect. You show respect you get respect. I know that it’s wrong as does everyone else on this forum, but I don’t think we need a thread here to discuss it. Everyone knows the consequences. But anyone that steals from anyone whether it be a company or individual will have the ultimate judgement. And you do it from your family is the worst.

Two worst kinds if people in life: Liars and Thiefs!

Brian (KY)

6

Good Question[:I], wonder if he has a guilty consience or something else???

7

I kinda doubt stolen property, especially valuables, would end up in a museum. The reason it was stolen in the first place was A) someone wanted to get their grubby little hands on it or B) someone wanted to sell it, which means it would end up in a private collection (refer back to ‘A’).

If you draw a bell curve A and B would take up most of the curve. In the extremeties (on the edges of both sides) reasons for stolen property to end up in museums would be the property had been stolen decades ago and changed hands many times, or someone would give it to a museum to throw it off the trail of authorities, or someone has a big ego and would donate something just to get prestige. Or use or imagination as to why someone would donate stolen property to museum, but all these reasons would only consume 1-2% or less of the bell curve.

The purpose of stealing, the main purpose of stealing, is not to give it away. But, if stolen property is donated to a museum and the museum recognized it as stolen property and didn’t turn it over to the proper authorities then the answer would fall between C and D of the survey question. That’s why museums should keep records of who donated what and where it all came from so if someday something is identified as stolen property they can trace it back to the person and maybe stop a crime ring or theif from committing future crimes.

As far as “Are museums TABOO?” question. I guess that means are museums immune from accepting stolen goods? No.

8

Hi guys and gals,

Sorry to disappoint you eolafan, but I am probably at least as honest as most of you and maybe more honest than a few others.

So, to answer your question Dave, this is “the deal”.

Read ALL the responses in my other two threads and you will notice that many of these people do in fact feel that stealing from the R.R. is not a crime. The same is evidently true in regards to trespassing.

Unfortunately Brian your assumption that “we all know that trespassing and stealing is not right” just isn’t true.

I suspect that many more people feel that trespassing and stealing from a R.R. are not crimes but were reluctant to post a response fearing they would be bashed.

I felt my first two theads were worthwhile subjects and judging by the large response to each of them many others also felt the same. However, if you gentleman feel otherwise no one is forcing you to join-in.

Another assumption that is not entirely true is that ALL railroad museums care if goods are stolen. I have first hand knowledge of stolen items being accepted by a museum. If they knew the items were stolen, at the time, I do not know.
When I informed the staff of this “oversight” ( I’m giving them the benefit of a doubt) they ignored my notice and have treated me like an outsider ever since.
When I have told others, outside the museum, of this incident they act as if I have just broken some TABOO by saying this about a R.R. museum.

Has any one seen any of my three topics on any other forum? I haven’t, so this is why I thought them to be worth posting.

So now you know “whats the deal”.

If I think of another topic I intend to post it even if it has to do with (gasp) stealing.

Have fun…be safe…OLD DAD

9

Old Dad
If you have first hand knowledge of stuff that belongs to another museum somewhere else you should do what you can to put it where it belongs.
stay safe
Joe

10

Hi JoeKoh.

I’m sorry if I didn’t make the situation clear, the items taken came from another railfan who obtained them legally, not a museum. To make matters worse, the perp. is an active long time member of this museum and also took credit for the donation.
Unfortunately I haven’t any real evidence to back up my claims so it looks like this fellow will get away with his deception.

Latter…OLD DAD

11

I vote for Totally Clueless.I personally would ask some very serious questions,and I am sure any reputible museum would do the same.Rail museums rely on donations from railroads,both of equipment and financial.this requires a good relationship which would be ruined if the museum was caught with stolen material.No museum wants this to happen.

12

Old Dad
its a shame that a person wants to be like that.
stay safe
Joe

13

pssst…anyone wanna buy an Geep?

14

Good attempt at being funny…keep on trying!

I’ve noticed a strange silence on this thread.
Have I done a BAD THING by bringing this subject out into the sunshine and placeing it under public scrutiny?

Does it bother you people to have this subject on this forum?
If so, WHY…

How many of you are members of a train or traction museum?

Just curious…OLD DAD

15

Okay i’m gonna add my two cents in.

Oyu know “old Dad” has a right to post any kind of Question. Just because he has posted three questions in the past, that perhaps don’t match the type of Questions that you would post, that gives you no right to jump on him and start assuming he’s a thief, tresspasser, and a liar.

You know if it wasn’t for his questions, No body on this forum would know what the overall aporoval rate was for taking stuff of RR property and calling it your own

Thansks to that thread an approval rate can be estimated to be around 30%.

30% of the people, who reponded to that thread, said it was alright to take an old spike you found lying around, And to rehash my opinion, i was counted in that 30%.

You know, I look up at his last post and I see the words “Just curious” Perhaps, Bryan from Kentucky and Dave H have never been curious about anyhting… I know I always am.

But specifically for Dave H, If i’m curious about a Mach 3 razor, made by Gillette, does that automatically mean, that the next time i’m on a plane, i’m going To kill the flight attendent with it? No it doesn’t… in fact… there could be a million and one reasons i want to know the information about a Mach 3 razor, and the reason I want to know, Is most likely not going to be bad, or result in anyones Death.

I know in Life it’s great to Assume, But to Assume that Old Dad is a tresspasser, a liar and a thief, solely because he posted those topics?.. Common.

No, it’s not a bad thing you brought this to light, the only people who think it is, are the kind of people that would rather have things like this swept under the rug and not have it looked at again…

Wait I hear a bell ringing… it’s Ringing on the REALITY CLOCK!

Sure we can all play ostrich (A big Bird found in Auistralia) and burry our heads in the sand, and hope the problem goes away.

NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN!

Why

16

I am a member of both Orange empire Railway Museum,and Feather River Rail Society which operates the museum at Portola Ca.Both of these museums have good relationships with local railroads,which would be destroyed if caught with stolen railroad items.

17

Thanks for your support kevinstheRRman,

I was beginning to wonder if I was writting in Eskimo or maybe Latin.

Sometimes silence speaks volumes about the true nature of a persons being.

You know the old adage…Tis better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.

Still curious…OLD trouble maker DAD

18

well, Kevin did respond, it so quite possibly you were writing in eskimo[:D]

If questionable aquistion practices are the topic, then I’d venture to guess the half of the antiquities exhibits at most of the major European and American natural history could be challenged. Western explorers did a fair amount of looting in the 1700-1900s in the name of history and science. So is there a statute of limitations on that???

If you know of a stolen piece of property, RR or not, you have two choices…report it to the authorities or don’t. It’s that simple…either you choose to get involved or you don’t. If someone knowngly took something, then they made a choice, and apparently have decided to accept the consequneces of that action…unless of course they live in California…where they were obvously victims of a materialistic society and should be compensated by both the accuser and government.

Is it somehow different because it is a museum and an RR at that…not in my book. It is up to you to decide whether it meets you definintion of stoln property and if you feel strongly enough to intervene…

my two hundredths of a dollar

19

[quote]
Originally posted by dharmon

well, Kevin did respond, it so quite possibly you were writing in eskimo[:D]

If questionable aquistion practices are the topic, then I’d venture to guess the half of the antiquities exhibits at most of the major European and American natural history could be challenged. Western explorers did a fair amount of looting in the 1700-1900s in the name of history and science. So is there a statute of limitations on that???

Was I referring to Kevin???

NO!

Looting in the name of anything at any time is of course WRONG.
SHAME on your western explorers. And SHAME on ANY museum that continues to HOARD artifacts that were NOT acquired legally and morally.

Most countries have laws regarding the exploration for and the removel of antiquities.
If an “explorer” breaks any one or several of these laws this person has then become (by common definition) a criminal.

Well, dharmon, would I be correct in assuming (based on your statements above) that you believe two WRONGS do make a RIGHT.

IF SO,

allow me to take YOUR LOGIC to the next level…thousands of murders were committed in the 1700-1900s.
SO, are you saying that this fact justifies committing additional murders TODAY???

OLD DAD

20

Whoa Ho Ho Ho there Hoss!!! I think you misunderstood my posting. Lets go to the tapes…

  1. The eskimo thing was becasue our Canadian collegue has been on a sabbatical to the northern areas of his fine country. This was poking fun at him Hoss not you.

  2. The point about antiquities is that there are alot of things in museums of questionable origin…not just RR museums.

  3. My opinion is that it is pretty cut and dried. If you know of something, you have two choices, report it or don’t. Whether it is a RR musuem or not. The decision to intervene is yours, mine or whomevers.

  4. I’ll see your comment about about my logic and raise you nearly seven months in the Balkans and a year of my life in the Gulf. I can talk a belly full about ancient hatred. How about a mist filled morning overlooking the Zetra stadium in Sarajevo and see headstones as far as the eye can see over ten acres of them…from just the preveious couple of years. Let’s not go there.

  5. This assuredly is NOT written in Eskimo …