My understanding is that a dispatcher located at a railroad’s dispatch center contacted a railroad operator via telephone or teletype, and the operator in turn wrote down the order and passed it on to the headend train crew via a hoop. Is that how it worked?
What information would a typical train order contain? I assume such orders were in addition to any direction train crews received via lineside signal aspects. Was there any mechanism whereby train crews would acknowledge receipt of hooped up messages? What if a train order was ignored and the crew later claimed they never received it?
What led to changes in issuing train orders that did away with the hoop? That’s how I recall it was done until the mid 80s…yet radios had been in use long before that…was there a technological breakthrough in the 80s that did away with the operator and the hoop that eventually led to what we have now?
Big subject. For a good start, see the 3 articles linked below in the Trains “Railroad Reference - ABC’s of Railroading” series here, as well as the articles in past issues that I also reference below. If you’re lucky, we’ll also get posts from Railway Man, BaltACD, jeffhergert, and Agent Kid, among others who know the subject way better than I do. Nevertheless, I also answered a couple of your questions directly below.
7th, on South Chicago & Southern (a short branch or loop line of the Pittburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago, operated by the Pennsylvania Company), near Colehour, Ill., butting collision between eastbound passenger train No. 12 and westbound passenger train No. 49, making a very bad wreck. Eleven passengers and 1 tramp were killed, and 7 passengers and 3 trainmen were injured. The smoking car of train No. 12 was practically demolished, and most of the fatal injuries were in this car. The train dispatcher at Fort Wayne had to make a meeting point for these trains every morning, but on this occasion he sent the order to train 160 instead of train 12. This order was
I really enjoyed towers, train orders, and the methods used to dispatch trains. Since, I missed steam, towers, were the “old technology” that I could relate to.
My office contains a number of framed photos taken in the 70’s of trains “hooping” orders.
Ulrich, just as your industry has evolved to Skybitz, Qualcom and others allowing instant information and communication, the railroading industry has made great strides. I will let the real railroaders to describe it, as they know all the bells and whistles.
Today, instead of going to a local tower (they still exist, but I dont attempt to enter), I listen on my scanner.
Basically it seems the dispatcher does the same thing as years ago…controls a section of railroad and controls/plans the movements. The tools are a bit different, but the job seems the same.
Train orders was a science dictated by the Book of Rules and an art designed by dispatchers and interpreted by train crews. A lot of good books have been cited for you to read and I urge you to read them. But also look for virtually and railroad’s Book Of Rules of the Operating Deparment for a first hand look at the catachism. Delve into old Rairoad Magazines (pre Railfan’n’Railroad) for some great commentaries and discussions on them. Check railroad shows, flea markets, and other railfans for copies of original copies of flimsies, especially from your favorite railroad or station–tower–location.
An excellent question. I’ve never seen a good answer; there was no tech breakthrough, but they must just have eventually decided radios were reliable enough?
On most RRs form 19s were not ignorable-- meet orders (“Train 1 meet train 2 at Oceano”) could be on a Form 19, along with most other orders restricting a train. Form 31 might be needed if the train was restricted at the point of delivery.
To the best of my knowledge, if a crew missed a hoop, they had to come back and get it.
I recall seeing the station agent at Rantoul (IC/ICG) putting orders up on the crane or hooping them up with a forked stick many times.
The terms “Timetable” and “Train order” were often used together, as it was a system.
In simple terms, the railroad ran on the timetable. If something caused a problem with the timetable (delayed train, etc), train orders were issued to get traffic over the line.
Misread and ignored train orders were directly responsible for a great many railroad mishaps.
At first, all train orders required a train to be stopped for delivery. As time progressed only trains that had their rights restricted required it to be stopped. Later, both trains might not need to be stopped, but if there was an open train order office at the meeting or waiting point, it might be required to copy the order on a Form 31 and stop the first of either train(s) for signatures. (That’s a middle order) Later still, the middle order was no longer required. Sometimes it depended if a line had some kind of block system whether a Form 31 was required.
Some railroads did away with the Form 31 train order form (had a place for signatures) and just used a Form 19 for everything. Some railroads did away with both the Form 19 and Form 31 and just used a generic train order form.
It all depends on the rules in effect on a railroad at the time. A Standard Code of Operating rules was developed. Individual railroads, or sometimes a few together, would pattern their rules after the Standard code. While there was a sameness, there were differences. We have had “discussions” on this before and probably will again. Still the differences are often negligible, really only becoming apparent when we talk of the Union Pacific did this in
From the 1st 2 paragraphs of the “Train Orders” article that I linked above:
"The train order . . . has been rendered obsolete by the radio, the computer, and amended work rules. . . .
The train order’s ultimate demise was sealed in 1986 by a national agreement between the railroads and the Transportation Communication Employees Union giving dispatchers the right to issue movement instructions directly to train crews, bypassing operators, in what is called Direct Train Control (DTC) territory. Up to that time the TCEU (previously the Order of Railroad Telegraphers) had jealously guarded its right to such work, and exclusive work rules had for years prohibited the adoption of a more modern system."
“Ignored” wasn’t the best choice of words, but the concept or principal of if the order ‘liberalized’ that train’s rights or schedule, then it was not as critical for the DS to know that the crew had received it, is still valid. From the “Train Orders” article linked above, under the heading “Different shapes, sizes, and colors”:
“Train orders were of two types: “31’s,” which had to be signed for by a member of the train crew, and “19’s,” which did not. The former were employed when the dispatcher needed to know that the affected train actually had the order, while the latter were used when he did not.”
I only just got around to looking at this thread. Thank you Paul for the invitation to participate. I don’t know how to quote from multiple posts at once so I have laid this thread out side by side and I will go down and cut and paste questions and answered as they come up. I am going to try to keep the personal recollections to a minimum or I could end retyping most of the posts I have ever written. So here goes.
Ulrich wrote:
My understanding is that a dispatcher located at a railroad’s dispatch center contacted a railroad operator via telephone or teletype, and the operator in turn wrote down the order and passed it on to the headend train crew via a hoop. Is that how it worked?
What information would a typical train order contain?
Before the telephone there was telegraph, hence the job category “Telegraph Operators”. Normally they were typed. And a second set was hooped up to the Caboose. For form and content of the order a good resource is the Canadian Pacific Historical Association at cptracks.ca In the Documents Library (registration is free) look up “Uniform Code of Operating Rules”(UCOR)
What led to changes in issuing train orders that did away with the hoop?
From Cotton Belt Engineer Chapter 5: “You take like during the War when we were running so many trains. I’ve gone out of here when I’d meet a train nearly every sidetrack between here and . And you’d have a handful of orders that, oh, my gosh, it was a sight on earth! And maybe get down to Sulphur Springs, and they’d hand you up some more. Well, you just had it to do–that’s all. You and the fireman and every member of the crew has to stay on the ball. If you don’t, you’ll wind up in a head-on collision, and somebody gets killed.” Said Red Standefer. [i]
Getting around the the actual delivery of orders. After the operator wrote out hte order(s) on the tissue form (having set the signal before receiveing) and read back to the dispatcher, he would have to have a way to deliver them to the train crew. In early days, trains stopped. Then someone came up with a hickory stick twisted into a loop with a long handle, or hoop, and the orders tied to it with string…thus the term hooping up orders. The engineer from his cab or his fireman or head brakeman from the cab steps would hold out their right arm and snag the hoop, remove the orders and drop the hoop. The rear of the train,conductor or rear brakeman or other designated trainman…would also drop an arm out a vestibule door or from a lower step for the orders, remove them from the hoop and drop the hoop. The operator then had to chase down the track to retrieve his hoops as soon as he was able. Some operators taught pet dogs to retrieve the hoops others found young operator wannabees who were only too happy to be a part of railroading at such a tender age. Later, a smart man, decided running after hoops was not only exhaustive, but also time wasting. He developed the fork, a simple “Y” shaped stick with notches at the tips and a spring clamp at the base, Train orders, clearance cards, messages, etc. would be tied into a string loop which was place on the fork, held up to the train crew who snatched the string and orders rather than the whole fork. The operator no longer had to trek up to a mile to find his hoops and the train crews could make string balls while waiting for a meet. At some busier locations permanent forks were installed alongside the tower or station so that they could be loaded at the operators “liesure” and he be able to man his position when the train came by…also trains could now pick up orders at a higher speed and the operator was further than 18 inches from a speeding train. Orders, of course, can be picked u
We could be charitable and say that gives the wrong idea, but probably just as well to say it’s wrong. Dispatchers could give trains crucial orders on Form 19 without stopping them at the point of delivery.
“Extra 4277 West wait at Honda until 400 PM”
“No 2 meet extra 4328 West at Arlight”
Does the dispatcher need to know the train has those orders? Well, yes, he needs to be able to assume it, anyway. The same order is intended go to No 2 and to Extra 4328; if one of them passes Arlight unauthorized an awkward situation will ensue.
Depending on what rules are in effect, at one time the copy to No 2 would be on a form 31, the copy to Extra 4328 West could be on a form 19.
Why? Because No 2 is being restricted at Arlight. It can’t leave until Extra 4328 West arrives. So if it misses the order a collision could result. Extra 4328 West is inferior (unless being made superior by a previous order we don’t know about) and will clear No 2’s schedule. If it misses the order, it will still clear No 2 somewhere short of Arlight. A collision is unlikely, but big delays can be had. Especially if Arlight and the siding where the extra clears up has no means of communication.
We always here how rules are written in blood. Train orders, over the years almost defy that. As time progressed some requirements for signatures were eased.
I began my career as a Operator on a single track Main Line territory that operated under Time Table, Train Orders and has APB signaling, had 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class Schedules as well as Extras.
My first day I was instructed to listen to the Train Dispatchers wire while I wrote the Book of Rules (a practice wherein you write, word for word, the Rule Book into a work book set up for the task). Gotcha #1 if you would EVER state I never read that rule…read it, you read it and you wrote it! Listening to the TD wire was like listening to a foreign language…with the speed that the Train Dispatcher issued the orders, with the required pronouncing and spelling place names and anything with a number, as well as the copying operators repeating the orders back to the Train Dispatcher with the same pronouncing and spelling routine. The practice was something that had to be learned…your tongue doesn’t naturally follow that procedure. When times were stated, even hours were not to be used…no 3 PM, 301 PM was permissible.
My carrier did operate Passenger Trains on their 1st Class Schedules and they ran fairly close to On Time - most of the time. Most of the Scheduled Freight trains ran on the 2nd Class Schedules, with that being said, the 2nd Class Schedules were just tools and were assigned to a train based upon it’s calling time from the origin terminal…Train A could be operated as No. 91 if the train was called between Midnight and 3AM, if it was called between 3AM and 6AM Train A might be operated as No 93. If it was even later it might be No. 95. Needless to say the same system was applied to trains operating the opposite direction.
The 3rd Class Schedules were used for the Local Freights when they were operating in their scheduled windows. One thing, according to our Rule Book, was that S