if it would print a full page letter from Metra and other commuter train authorities and/or railroads signed by someone who is the boss saying that it is lawful to photograph their trains. That way we could either have the mag or a xerox of the letter or a download from the website with us and keep it in our camera bags so we could show it to law enforcement.
Just a thought.
Dave Nelson
Of course, such a letter would have to exist first…
LC
Instead, why not give Metra or any other transit a call and find out.
LOL
This must have been prompted by Steve Glischinski"s report in the August, 2007 Trains about METRA cops harrassing railfans. I have some better ideas:
Most commuter railroad authorities have web sites. If photographing trains is permitted from their stations, why not publish their policy about photographing trains from their stations in their web sites? The National Rail Network in Great Britain is a good example of how it is done. See their website for National Rail Enquiries, www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger services Then click on the Rail Entusiasts.
If the commuter railroad authority publishes a newsletter as METRA does (“On The BiLevel”) why not publish their policy about photographing trains from their station platforms in that newsletter?
In any event, the publication of the commuter authority’s policy about photography from railroad station platforms is for guidance only (what photographers can and cannot do); it should not be used to show that it is permissible when confronted by law enforcement or railroad emloyees.
It’s already been done. TRAINS has covered the debate from the initial harrassment issue until now. There are even references made to the lawyer who has published a letter similar to what you want concerning your rights under the First Amendment to the Constitution.
My point is that if you are actually confronted by someone who orders you to surrender your camera or come to the station it is no sense asking them to read some article or go to some website. You need a source of authority that they recognize and react to.
If the Metra and other authorities are willing to tell a reporter that photography is OK – and they have been-- they should be willing to sign such a blanket letter for publication
Dave Nelson
If Metra did this would that constitute some sort of acknowledgement of liability?
Gabe, where RU?
I see a frequent reference to First Amendment rights in these discussions about railfans and railroad police.
Just which part of the First Amendment is being violated in these incidents?
The First Amendment:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” -- The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Free speech… photogrpahy from a public place
I am assumming that most folk that want to force the issue of having the right to take photos are asserting “the right of the people peaceably to assemble”.
Yet, it seems there are laws against “loitering” that have been upheld as “constitutional”.
I know they have been upheld because in the small town where I was born I remember seeing really old men that sat on park benches most all day long around the county court house. I was told that they were “centenarians” and “members of the G.A.R.” This was in 1949, 1950 time frame. For those that don’t know, the “G.A.R.” is the Grand Army of the Republic, which were the Union forces in the American Civil War (1861-1865). I was also told that one of them claimed to have fought beside a man that had also fought in the Revolutionary War (1775-1783)! I remember seeing them playing checkers with the board between them on the stone park benches.
Apparently, sometime in the 1960’s, a “new” crowd of senior citizens gathered there and became too rowdy so the county put up signs that said “No Loitering”, and they were arrested when they came back the next day. T
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Free speech… ph
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Freedom Of The Press.
Photography is the recording of an event that MAY be news worthy and MAY be published. Court rulings have held that photographing from “publicly owned property” is protected. Photos taken from public sidewalks and streets are always allowed, to be otherwise would put the “Inside Edition” and “Entertainment Tonight” out of busiess.
BUT, after 911, a man with a bag and camera in a crowed place will always warrant checking (station platforms). As a Policeman may, with suspicion, request information from you on a street, Railroad Police will do the same on Railroad Property, even if public owned or open to the public.
In taking photos, if the Rail Line is a privite company, and remember, most Commuter Railroads run on Rail Company tracks, then you are TRESPASSING on private property! Do you know the rules for Right Of Way (ROW) Safety? Do you know where to stand? How far back? Do you stand still and face the engineer of an approaching train? Do you never stand between the rails or between two tracks? You do know the engineer will radio in your location, a person on property without a Flagman and not in his “Orders”, Railroad Police will investigate. Take your photo and move along (fast).
If stopped, Carry Identification (Driver’s Lic., Your Company ID Card, etc), any Railfan Membership Cards, a few prints of photos you have taken (some taken with Railroad permission would help), any magazines with your published photos.
What an ugly trade-off!
I wouldn’t bet 2 cents on this defense. Too nebulous of a description. Railfans taking photos do not qualify as the press.
“Freedom of the press (or press freedom) is the guarantee by a government of free public press … extended to members of legitimate news gathering organizations and their published reporting. It also extends to news gathering, and processes involved in obtaining information for public distribution.”
If you are a full-time, credentialed photographer from, say, Trains magazine and on specific assignment from an editor, OK. Same if you can prove a freelance assignment to shoot exactly what you are shooting.
But if this sort of thing went to trial, I seriously doubt any court would allow railfans snapping photos to turn it into a Constitutional issue by claiming they were members of a “news gathering organization”. And “obtaining information for public distribution” does not include photos gathered for display on personal web pages, “future books”, etc., which would not be considered “public distribution”. I doubt any judge would even allow these defenses.
I couldn’t even find a clear definition of photography as a First Amendment right on the ACLU’s website, and those cases are its bread and butter. If someone else can link us to a reputable opinion or court decision, please do so.
There was a case in Chicago years ago when the “editor” (a lawyer) of a newsletter circulated in his apartment complex a
In Australia, the same strange desire to restrict photography exists.
Unfortunately, the Minister for Transport of New South Wales (a state) was asked a question in Parliament in answering which he stated and I quote “it is not an offence to take a photograph on a train or on a station in NSW”.
I carry a copy of this around with me. I was approached by a couple of Transit Police who told me that I should have asked permission to take photos. I showed them the Minister’s statement and they admitted that I need not ask for permission as since what I was doing was “not an offence” my activity could not be restricted (as long as I had a ticket, stayed behind the yellow line, and was otherwise polite and helpful).
It also discourages overly enthusiastic staff from calling the police, since very little is to be gained if the police can’t actually take you away since there is no “offence” involved.
M636C
NS policy from their web site:
“It is permissible to photograph Norfolk Southern trains and operations from vantage points that are well away from railroad property. Trespassing on railroad property is a serious offense - one that could expose the trespasser to potential danger.”
BNSF allows you to essentially register as a railfan: http://www.bnsf.com/media/news/articles/2006/06/2006-06-07a.html
Here is one for Metra.
UH…, I really hate to enter this discussion because of the rhetoric and lack of law knowledge but has anyone considered either calling Metra or sending them a letter stating who you are, why you want to take pictures and asking for something or someone who could be a contact if a problem develops? Those of us old enough to have knowledge of World War Two and restrictions including photographing of trains find this attitude of “My rights outwiegh yours” to be pitiful, self centered, and disgusting. Lest you think it couldn’t happen here you better check your history book about the German infiltrators who were put ashore from a submarine on Long Island with a load of explosives. Among their targets was Horsehoe Curve and Penn Station in New York. I can just see them saying, “You are violating mny rights to congregate and do what I want any time and any place”. They were put in jail and rightly so. Think there aren’t Al quida people in the US. Ask the relatives of the crashed planes and people in the World Trade Center. Grow up!