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Trains News Wire EXCLUSIVE: Iowa Pacific, Watco to operate passenger train demonstration project in Oklahoma
Actually, to set the record straight, in the USA, private capital built and profited from passenger rail of all types: subways, streetcars, elevated, interurbans, “steam roads.” Not until subsidized competition, of all types, did that change.
If real cost per mile of travel were assessed, few could afford to drive or fly, especially the latter. Ditto for freight trucking.
TRAINS MAGAZINE… Please don’t stop Mr. GUSE… with every comment he reminds me of the pleasant 102 minutes I spent at my local multiplex watching the though provoking Atlas Shrugged: Part I…
The main thought being “I paid $10.50 to watch this?” and “Hey! I could direct a much better Anime… Steam Punk or Futuristic!” And I could also save a lot of money by outsourcing animation production to South Korea which saves money be outsourcing the work to North Korea!
Seriously Iowa Pacific never stops to amaze me! Can such a private passenger service survive and even prosper without a public operating or even capital subsidy? I don’t know but we’ll see!
Ed Ellis however has receive public support for several of his railroads including the Saratoga & North Creek which before Iowa Pacific saw a large federal earmark to fix up the tracks, and which today is a partnership with the town and county which own the old D&H Adirondack Branch.
I guess in the eyes of Mr. Guse that makes him a “moocher” and “looter” like James Taggart and not a “provider” like Dagny Taggart. Well I’m one moocher who appreciates the efforts of Mr. Ellis and his company! No need to look for John Galt!
Guse-
Try to read more closely. This is a tourist/leisure travel operation that’s being proposed. Not highway competitive transport.
Your comments are completely irrelevant.
Nice to see private enterprise trying something that might be as successful as the Grapevine Railway, or whatever it is called, that runs on Fort Worth and Western tracks between the Dallas and Fort Worth metropolitan areas.
I note that Jeffery Guse says: “Not, sure, but…” I didn’t think that was possible.
The Eastern Flyer is advertised as passenger service, includes a diner on a ninety mile trip and runs on weekends. This sounds like a scenic rail type of operation not a speed competition with the turnpike. It includes a longer layover to allow riders to enjoy shopping or sporting events. I would recommend aiming for Saturday & Sunday operation to allow folks to enjoy a weekend experience. Possibly a Monday train on three day weekends like Feb 17th. I’m sure customer surveys on the three test runs will help guide the future. Hopefully it will succeed.
If readers do not appreciate Jeffery’s comments, his name appears at the top of each entry and they can be skipped just as multiple postings of the same comments. Or, you can read them for the tidbits of useful information he slips in about once a month
Good luck with the high fare and slow speeds. Maybe convenience of stations will help.
This seems like a great idea but the price seems high since this like a commuter train not a tourist operation.
This is kind of trying something different. I will give credit to Ed Ellis for trying. All the best to him. $70 dollars round trip. Not pricey. And they have a diner.
It would be nice to see this succeed. Mr. Guse has obviously never driven on this stretch of toll way. (1) It’s only two lanes in most spots so when semi’s decide to pass each other at 1/2 to 1 MPH difference in speed, they take about 10-20 miles to complete the pass backing up traffic and flaring tempers. (2) There is almost always a brush fire on one section or another of the toll way causing delays. (3) Come January, 1/2" of snow causes numerous multi-car accidents dragging traffic to a halt. The end game for successful rail passenger service is having great destinations like Bricktown to visit. When I was in the service living in Lawton, I would have loved to have been able to ride a train into Bricktown.
The costs of operation need to come way down if they wish to compete with the turnpike, which is funded from the tolls. Plus they will need to get the speed up high enough to compete. Right now the turnpike operates at 75 MPH and rumor has it they are thinking about following the Texas lead and kicking it up to 85. How fast does a passenger train need to go to compete with a toll road with that speed limit with no delays due to its rural straight as an arrow nature? Not sure but the Northeast Corridor has to compete with the NJ Turnpike and the GW Bridge. Look how fast the NE Corridor goes and how backed up the Turnpike and Bridge get. I figure that train will need to do at least 250 MPH to compete with a zero delay toll road.
It has been my understanding that until around 1950, the railroads were still making money from their long-distance (non-branch and non-commuter) passenger services. Indeed, Seaboard Coast Line and Santa Fe, if I recall correctly, were seriously considering staying out of Amtrak, as their services were just barely profitable. Secondly, the explosion of streetcar and interurban lines in the 1890s and 1900s occurred because, for a brief period, they were indeed profitable. To be sure, some were likely to have been loss leaders for related suburban developments, but most were conceived with the idea of making a profit. Samuel Insull, at least, thought he would so so.
Mr Guse…the Will Rogers Turnpike is not Luke the Texas turnpike that has the 85 MPH limit. The OK turnpike us not wide and straight like you think. Ok City-Tulsa passenger rail would be nice on a regular basis, but the infrastructure would need lots of improvement to be economically feasible and profitable.
For this train to really be successful it needs to start at the station in Tulsa, OK and at least end at Oklahoma City, Ok preferably in the bricktown area. Which is possible, although it would require a back up move in OKC to reach the station. The SWC uses the BNSF to cross the N. Canadian River, however it would relatively easy to back the train into the station as it’s less than a mile from the switch, with proper protection of course as well as permission from BNSF
Mr. Larson makes some great points.
I would add that in addition to economic costs, there are also social and environmental costs to consider. Auto-dependancy has turned this into a nation of strip malls, suburbs, and asphalt as far as the eye can see. While the economic cost for rail may or may not be more depending on the situation, factoring in the other two parts of the equation almost always leaves highways looking like the most costly option available.
In the first 3 stories in today’s NewsWire, Mr Guse has expressed his hatred of government railways, union railways and now he has problems with private enterprise railways. To Trains Magazine: can you provide a filter so that I don’t have to listen to someone who has nothing constructive to say about railways?
Mr Guse should be free to express his views as others are free to disagree
I would like to see projects like this succeed, but I have my doubts. Price is too high for simple transportation of a short distance. Public transportation never pays for itself from the fare box. Never has. Never will.
GW Bridge? What’s the toll? $15 eastbound, free westbound. Same with the Lincoln and Holland tunnels and the Verezano (sp?) Narrows Bridge. I think 'd stay at home and let the USPS deliver my welfare checks. Wonder what they are going to get for the new Tappan Zee Bridge, after interminable delays and cost-overruns.
KEITH POMROY in Fred Frailey’s book “Twilight of the Great Trains” he writes that a lot of the long-distance streamliners did make money based on their direct costs (not fully allocated) because of the mail contracts, once these where lost in the late 1960s the red ink flowed for all passenger trains.
That was a long time ago and maybe things have changed in some places… we’ll see! Certainly is something interesting to watch.