Ed - That´s interesting and a new one to me. The model sold under the Aristo Craft brand seems to be an early Eheim production model. Unfortunately, the performance was something else and this earned the system a bad reputation, even when Brawa took over and modernized it.
That´s quite right, Sheldon, I was referring to working HO scale models of trolley buses.
As for the prototype, the “dumb pole” still offers advantages over any battery solution. While battery operated may see an advantage in places with a rather moderate climate, cities with harsh winters certainly could face range issues. Anyhow, cities like Zurich in Switzerland are still investing into the “classic” trolley bus and we all know that the Swiss are thrifty people …
My point being more that any ‘new’ model bus system might replicate things like point-recharge actually being built or considered, not just necessarily wired systems.
I’m surprised no one has tried building one of those periodic-recharge systems. Bus reaches a stop, poles go up, you have the option of flywheel acceleration sound for those prototypes that use it. Bus doors close, poles go down, bus moves to next stop. Plenty of visual appeal there, and you could easily adapt it to live contacts and periodic recharge of running battery or supercap in the bus, just like many of the ‘real’ ones do.
Well, I think if anyone ventured into the HO or N scale trolley bus market again, it would anly make sense to develop one overhead wire system, then produce buses that refect current US and European systems, and buses that reflect the strong period of US usage, 1930 to 1960.
In the US, modeling present day, and modeling the post WWII transition era remain the most popular modeling choices from what we can tell. Such a product would have an appeal to both groups.
Modeling the cutting edge future, not to sure about that?
Here in my little world, two factory fresh SD9’s from LaGrange are the newest locomotives in the world, in September 1954…
1954 was likely the high water mark for trolley buses in Baltimore, and possibly in the whole of the US.
Sheldon
Pity you don’t model Memphis, which in 1954 probably still had the most extensive trolleybus system in America. You can still see the legacy of the overhead provision on many of the streets that had it.
I don’t think there is much commonalty between trolleybus overhead wiring systems, just as there’s relatively little in catenary systems for heavy rail. What you’d likely have is the wiring made modular, as in the ‘diorama’ Ulrich provided, and then a range of molded/stamped supports, like poles or lattice supports or precast concrete, for different eras or as a starting point for more ‘accurate’ modeling.
An interesting question is whether something like DCC ought to be provided for a ‘new’ model trolleybus system, which might simplify some of the power supply arrangements for the wiring but would have the same kind of issues with DC versions that model trains have. In my opinion, there would assuredly be more market for these models if they can be programmed to follow complex routes with stops, door action, etc. than if they just go around and around faster or slower as you turn a knob.
One chassis, made with adjustable length and provision for single vs. dual rear, and appropriate scale wheel and tire designs for different prototypes. All the electrics common to every bus, hardpoints for all the features provided on the chassis like those original Matsushita portable-VCR motherboards.
Then at least organized Shapeways file support or the equivalent for the range of specific trolleybuses people might want to model. I agree that only a limited number of original prototypes ‘need’ to be made and factory-painted for sale as ‘sets’, and in particular a ‘fishbowl’ like Dayton’s would be a sensible option… just not
You could easily use the Faller Car System for that - even without any major modification, if you skip raising or lowering the connectors.
I think the real challenge lies in making a working trolley bus system with “live” overhead.
I think you are right. Can you explain to me how the ‘digital’ Faller system integrates with the gamesontrack “satellite” system, and what the DCC code transmission rate that is practically achievable through the radio is?
I’m also not quite certain whether it’s possible to do DCC modulation on the susceptible wire used in the Faller system. Some combination of the two combined with a little onboard routine storage should give realistic stop, start, acceleration, braking and steering action to vehicles running under the Faller system, and of course raising and lowering conductors in a recharging system becomes relatively simple in a variety of ways.
Doesn’t the diorama have live overhead? Looks to me as if all the parts are made of conductive material. The ‘trick’ we could do here appears to be comparatively simple: instead of making a live overhead system that has to conduct motor current without jitter or interruption, make it a continuous charging current for onboard battery power as is used in the Faller system vehicles – wouldn’t have to be a really big onboard battery, but one that can handle intermittent dropouts and impulse noise. That in turn would allow for ‘soft’ make and break in intermittent contact, cutting down on spark erosion of the wire and shoes over time.
Then you could miniaturize the size of the U-shaped shoes on the poles, and probably the diameter of the overhead wire, and this would simplify at least some fabrication of the overhead wire elements. I am not sure if they can be gotten down to the size they would ‘bear’ like a trolley-pole wheel on overhead wire without vertical standoffs to give some of the effect of those Brawa ‘strips’; it helps greatly that the wire following can be essentially passive
Yes, it does and from the looks of it, Daniel used Brawa masts and strung his own wires instead of using the Brawa curved wires.
Anotrher approach to modelling a working trolley bus would be the use of RC to control the bus, while the power is supplied through the overhead wires. Modelling HO scale RC controlled vehicles has become quite a craze recently and there are tons of videos on Youtube showing these miniature marvels. I have seen VW micro buses, trucks, bucket loaders, Caterpillars - but not yet a trolley bus. The stuff runs on 3V DC and I am surprised how smooth the movement is.
It would be quite challenging to drive a trolley bus without it getting de-wired!
But isn’t this precisely what the ‘digital Faller’ DCC system as controlled by the gamesontrack “GPS satellite” microdifferential system does?
In my opinion it wouldn’t be that difficult to develop the equivalent of the sort of GPS mapped haptic space that the Carnegie-Mellon autonomous vehicle project (among others) worked out, and then use the millimetric precision of the the gamesontrack system to predictively control all the motions of the vehicle via proportional command (for which 128step coding ought to be quite adequate even in full servo). On top of this you could have simple subroutines for effective momentum that would make both steering and acceleration/braking as realistic as wanted.
The first time I saw trolleybuses was when looking at colleges in 1974, on the line out of the tunnel at Harvard Square. This was back in the days of the old dark-green buses that looked as if they were built in the early ‘30s, with identifiable light bulbs for headlights, and just during the time I was watching there were two dewirements … both involving wide, sweeping missed turns that skidded the bus far wide of the ‘proper’ line. In both cases the vehicle didn’t dewire its poles until they were at a considerable angle to the line of the wire. I think there was easily 4’ of play on either side of the bus, which is enormous for lanekeeping, and that was on a comparatively sharp curve where the two poles are encountering different engaging offset.
On a model you don’t have much ability to use vertical springing to keep the pole ‘wired’ firmly, but you can make the groove in the ‘shoe’ at the end of the pole shaped so it’s wider at entry and exit and ‘close’ laterally in the middle.&nb
I have seen several of the Brawa sets available over the years. Every one of the bus bodies in all the sets were seriously distorted. Buyer beware.
Dave
I don´t know. I see the Gamesontrack system as a internal GPS-based layout automation system which still requires either track (for trains) or the “wire” (for cars). I may be wrong, though.
The question to me is whether a system that can control fore-and-aft movement with fairly high precision could also be used to do steering, or trigger subroutines for momentum acceleration and braking, etc. The Gamesontrack system supposedly has 1mm precision over the whole space, which means to me that both longitudinal and lateral deviation can be pretty closely detected and sequential position used (as in laser radar) to generate speed and direction.
In the pictured system at the Toy Fair, I only see the Faller vehicles using (presumably) their wire to steer or do route following; it’s the starting and stopping (which the original Faller Car System did not do, as I recall; you turned it on and it ran at a constant speed following the wire) that’s under close and at least semiautomatic (from what I could make out from the description) control.
I keep coming back to wondering whether a DCC datastream could be modulated onto that magnetically-susceptible steering wire, and picked up by coils at the detector in a vehicle. Then keep the datastream used by the GPS location system, and the RF band used by those mini-RC trucks. That should offer enough bandwidth to do some highly complex control things with the vehicles, including arranging their steering to roughly follow the wire but also deviate from it slightly or periodically so it doesn’t appear you have a toy truck going around and around.
I was also interested to see that Faller and the Magnorail system can coexist fairly happily. (I confess to still being awed at that pedaling HO bicyclist) I’m beginning to think there may be ways to animate many of the people and vehicles on layouts and not just the trains…
You seem to be knee-deep into that electronics stuff, which is way beyond me [swg].
Back to modelling a trolley bus system. This thread really got me interested in trolley buses. I was amazed to see, how many system there are in the US! I just wonder why apparently no one has picked the issue up of building a working HO scale model of a modern trolley bus system.
I vaguley remember the electric buses as a kid growing up in Brooklyn
Maybe 20 or so years ago I read an article in a bus modeler publication of a guy who built his own operating trolleybus system.Wish I still had the article
Well, I took a small leap into this project. I found a trolley bus set I liked the look of at a reasonable price on Ebay and made a deal.
Someone may have mentioned earlier, there are two versions of these trolley buses.
The older ones have the rather clunky looking steering arm/trolley pole mount above the roof of the bus.
Sometime later, in the 70’s I believe, Brawa did invest in several small changes to improve the product. The large flat overhead wires where replaced with smaller round ones, the details of the poles were simplified and the steering was moved completely inside the bus. Changes where also made to the support masts for the overhead.
About the same time these changes were made, US distribution moved from Aristo Craft (who was leaving the HO market at that time) and moved across the Delaware to AHM in Philly.
The set I found is the newer style, and I will keep a look out for more of the newer style systems or extra accessories.
Hopefully this will allow me to evaluate the viability of this project.
Interestingly, the guy selling this set is only about 30 minutes from me, in a neighborhood I know well.
Sheldon
Just to visualize the difference - here is an old Eheim trolley bus model:
And here a newer Brawa model:
Please keep us updated, Sheldon!
Not to change the subject, but does anyone make a street car/trolley car like the one from the late 40s in S. Ca.
Bowser makes models of the Pacific Electric PCC streetcars.
I am not sure whether they are currently available.
Tom, would you believe that CUT, aka Terminal Tower was created for the Shaker Rapid? Yep, all that started out as a way to get a rapid stop on Public Square.
The intercity passenger trains were an afterthought.
OK, so far I have scored two trolley bus starter sets. Here are a few photos of one of them:
Both are basically the same, the other bus is yellow. Both buses in very good condition. This set has the standard 100" of overhead, the other has some extra poles and wires, and a 90 degree crossing, with a total of about 130" of overhead.
So that is a good start.
I will be testing the buses, and will post more soon. I will keep an eye out for more overhead in particular. 230" inches may be enough, we will see?
Sheldon