Turtle Creek MRR layout

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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[To: BRAKIE

If you still access this forum, just which supperior layouts do you refer to that are suitable for a beginner to tackle. Please identify Month and Year if your choice appeared in MRR.

Joe,This I can not do as I have not seen that many 4’ x 8’ layouts in MR that would be worth building…

The BEST layout is the layout one designs for his/her self…You see by doing this they will get what they WANT from there layout then what some layout designer thinks some one else would want in a layout…

Also keep in mind a lot of these" beginner" layouts is a rouse to have a new hobbyist buy books or what have you they may not really need…Look,one can use the Atlas controller and selectors and wire them by the instructions printed on the back of the package they come in.These work well and no book is needed…Then of course they tell the beginner how to wire that layout for DCC that they don’t really need till they get the feel of the hobby to see if they like the hobby or not…Then of course they always mention the high dollar locomotives that just might send a new modeler screaming from his LHS from the high prices. never to return thinking this is a rich man’s hobby.[:0] …

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Several people have valuable points here -

A tradtional 4 x 8 oval can be pretty boring to operate, but on the other hand it can be a good starting point. I’m thinking here of dad helping his kids build a layout scenario, thats a worthwhile learning experience for all concerned. Hey - thats how I got into this hobby - sure I’ve moved on but don’t knock it as a starting point.

On the other hand a 4x8 is not a good use of space, it needs something like 10x12 to operate it properly, there are much better uses of 10x12 than a simple oval with a couple of sidings. But you only learn that once you move away from the “Lionel mentality” of the trainset, these kinds of layout are the transition between the two and therefore have a role to play whether we who have been in the hobby a lot longer like it or not.

I really disagree with BRAKIE over his last post -reading is just what the beginer needs if he or she is ever to progress to anything else. I would say buy every book and mag you can afford, it will stretch your immagination as to what you could achieve in the future, or even if you choose add to this layout! Not everyone has had the chance to work in the rail industry and some have a lot of learning to do before they realise there are other ways of operating than the tail chaser.

Whilst the Turtle Creek layout certainly has its short comings as a track plan I think the series of articles that this (and just about every other MR beginer layout I’ve seen) generates is a really wothwhile thing. The basic skills of laying track and forming scenery is the foundation of the hobby whatever scale or era you choose model in.

Published track plans have a role to play - not everyone has the flair to design their own plan - if you’re limited for space then there are only so many possibilities. Sure if you’ve been modelling for a while you’ll want to put your own stamp on it - change the era or add key elements from your favourite road.

As a final

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James,A beginner can learn a lot by reading MR and other magazines…I urge you to take another look at those books and you will see what I am saying…One does not need to work on the railroad to gain knowledge on how to plan a layout…All he/she needs to do is observe the real thing to see how they go about doing track work and going about their daily business…

A layout is NOT that hard to design…It does take some thinking…It is my opinion that a lot of modelers stumble over designing a layout due to the simple fact they have read to much on layout designs and try to cram to way to much on their “dream” layout…The best thing is to keep a layout simple in track design and scenery…What rule says you need to cram a lot of track on a layout? In layout designs some times less is better…

Yes,it is past time that modelers start to think outside of the box in layout designs and take the next step forward in better layout designs…You can see this in looking at layouts by the great thinkers of layout designs such as Tony Koester,Bill Daraby(sp?),Rick Rideout,Lance Mindheim and others…

We have the best detailed engines and cars ever made by just opening the box… .We have a wealth of information just by a click of a mouse…We have great looking buildings,cars,trucks and etc… Now don’t you think we should design layouts that will compliment our models?

One more item…Track is a model to and should (perhaps must) be modeled accordingly…That is another topic whithin its self…

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Leme guess you’re into hand laid Proto87 trackwork?[}:)] Yeh your right thats another thread all by itself …

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James,No,I am not into proto 87 nor do I hand lay track…I do however promote better layout designs…I also promote better track modeling as to the type of layout we build…In short a main line should look like a main line and a branch line should look like a branch line and not a well maintain main line…A industrial branch layout track should look like a industrial branch line and not a regular branch line…One needs to pay attention to the yard tracks and engine service area as well.See what I am talking about? A little more paying attention to track details can lead to a great looking layout…

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I think I will use the Turtle Creek Central plan slightly modified and without the mountain or river for my new 4x8 Oklahoma Belt RR.

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BRAKIE - My comment about Proto87 was with humorous intent … however, I do see what you mean, but I don’t think an article about a beginners layout is necessarily the right place to say it, although in this instance Jim Kelly did make the point about branch lines not having huge ballast shoulders like a mainline in one of the follow up articles.

I still think you are missing my point about layouts like the Turtle Creek being a transition between a trainset and a model railroad. The only real purpose in life for these layouts are training grounds for future hobbyists, they must get the basic skills and get something built, trying to impose higher standards is not the way to encorage people into the hobby. Like you don’t learn algebra before you’ve been taught the basic of math.

Whether or not someone actually builds the published track plan is kind of irrelavent as long as they have read the article on how to go about putting a basic layout together.

Many British mags make this mistake and try and make their “how to start” articles over complicated, which puts beginners off - the hobby in th UK is suffering from a lack of new kids which I attribute in part to this mistake. Paying attention to the track for a main, branch, or siding comes when the beginner replaces their first layout because they have outgrown its limitations, in the mean time they have learnt that the main part of the hobby is that its FUN to build things.

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There is a rule about the internet.Learn fast who to listen to and who to ignore.I guess we need to ignore Larry.
Do your layout the way you want newbies!!!(Old timers to!!!)

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James,The biggest problem I have with those project layouts is the leave the new modeler with the impression that is all there is to building or running a layout…There is much more a beginner can do to improve a layout that will keep his/her interest up in the hobby…I fully agree these layouts show the modeler how to but leaves any real operation (if you will) out…We both know watching a train run loops with very little or no other things to do will quickly become boring even to the newest of modelers.Here in my opinion is where the danger lays in the newbie giving up on the hobby especially if he/she doesn’t have the room for a bigger layout…Why not design it right in the first place with a easy to build and interesting layout operational wise?( operation meaning having cars to switch at industries and perhaps a small yard.)

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Jeff, That wasn’t nice…If one wants to help the newbie build a better and more interesting layout they should not have to worry about guys like you…I am for the betterment of the beginner layout so the newbie will stay interested in the hobby and not leave the hobby when those project layouts become boring…

What’s wrong with that besides it properly disagrees with your modeling tastes?

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Geez, I dont have the biggest room in the world for my layout, and if I had to settle on a 4x8 I would. It is after all a HOBBY something to do in your spare time??? am I right. I can watch trains go around in a circle and get enjoyment out of it, especially after a long days work. And if you build it , and dont like it, you can always rip it out and do it different. Sometimes these 4x8 articles give me an idea I can use on my own layout, so I say keep em coming

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Brakie, while I think your views certainly do have some validity, and that your efforts to help newbies is to be applauded, several contrary points of view need raising.

Linn Westcott (or perhaps it was John Page) cited decades ago that there are several subgroups within the hobby with totally differing goals when it comes to layout building, be it a 4x8 or one of any other dimensions. I think 5 subgroups were originally cited by the author and among them was one called “The Railfan”. These individuals desire only to see the trains run on their layouts. Even long-term they have no interest whatever in switching or “operations”. Over the years MR has published a number of tours of such layouts, which lacked any switching potential at all. Some of the modelers in this group had been in the hobby for many years and were perfectly happy with this method of running their layouts. This same “Railfan” faction is well represented in the hobby currently, as an MR poll recently demonstrated (less than 50% of hobbyists responding do any sort of “operation” on their layouts). In that survey’s resp

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Amen CN

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It’s interesting that this discussion seems to be continuing after 6 months or more. The issues with the Turtle Creek layout are among the most recent MR’s I’ve purchased – I buy it at the hobby shop less than half the time now. The Turtle Creek is one of the reasons I buy it less – here is why, though it’s probably not for the reasons most posters have given here.

First, MR is increasingly dominated by a small clique of insiders, former staff, and other regular contributors. I would agree that the layout as executed is mediocre, and I suspect that it got into MR because the author has connections – decisions appear not to be made on merit. I don’t like seeing this in MR any more than I like it in the New York Times.

Second, I’m bothered by the post from the guy who’s trying to build the layout and finds that the track plan doesn’t work as published. I simply don’t know – and don’ want to take the time to investigate – if this is a misreading of the track plan or layout instructions, but a 90 degree crossing is a standard component, and it seems like this would be a hard thing to screw up. If it’s been screwed up at the magazine end, then there’s that much less reason for MR to continue to be the hobby’s flag-bearer.

Third, the perennial MR “beginner’s project” continues to carry on the strange MR editorial voice: on one hand, talk down to your readers as though they’re all beginners. On the other, dazzle them simultaneously with ostentatiously big layouts that in many cases stress the owner’s economic status as much as his interest in the hobby (the Southern Railway layout in the current issue, which I browsed but didn’t buy, is a good example – not only do we get a photo of the owner, but now we see a photo of his HOUSE, apparently in a “good” neighborhood).

What’s increasingly missing is what’s in the middle – layouts built by ordinary people of ordinary size, as well as challenging modeling projects that appeal to a wide audience. I suspect

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Guys,Please don’t misinterpret my words…All I am doing is urging the new and in some cases older modelers to look outside of the box for a much better 4’x8’ track plans then most of MR’s beginners project layouts…If I am wrong in doing this then I plea guilty as charged…I been in the hobby 52 years and seen many new modelers come into the hobby get disillusion with the hobby by a poorly design layout that has no operational/running potential but was great to run endless loops with.Where did these newbies get their layout plan? From books being sold by Kalmbach and Atlas…Also like jwb stated the mega layouts found in MR didn’t help either…

I also tell the newbie that there is no need to take a second or third mortgage out on the house in order to have a nice layout and to enjoy the hobby…I tell them one doesn’t need DCC or a $150.00 engine to enjoy this hobby…

BTW jwb,I also would love to see more of the common modelers layouts in MR and as far as that goes all other magazines as well…I suspect there is far more 4’x8’ layouts out there then basement size empires…Due to a recent move my layout space is only 2’x11’…It will be a well thought out industrial switching layout design that will give me many years of enjoyment…No switching puzzles for me.

Guys I am not a elitist but do want to see the newbie get started on the right foot and not build a layout he/she may/will get bored with and leave the hobby thinking that is all there is to the hobby.

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“(the Southern Railway layout in the current issue, which I browsed but didn’t buy, is a good example – not only do we get a photo of the owner, but now we see a photo of his HOUSE, apparently in a “good” neighborhood).”

Worse than that–I think it was his GARAGE, which holds the layout.

While I was a little taken aback by how much Brakie disliked the Turtle Creek layout, I’ve read him on this and other forums and ALWAYS found him helpful and knowledgeable. He will bend over backwards to help beginners out (me included). Maybe you don’t agree with him, but if he says something I pay attention.

That said, I thought the mountain was awful, but my wife likes mountains and tunnels and keeps pestering me for one on my layout (set in Kansas, no less!) I think the 4x8 layouts are useful for beginners, but the project layout I really liked was the Wildcat Central–an around the walls shelf layout. That was a good railfan layout, too, but easy to modify if one wished. I’ve liked some of the recent N layouts, too, like the Arkansas and Missouri a few years back.

The recent small layout designs have been good, too, and I think it shows an effort to be more realistic for average readers.

Gary

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This thread caught my eye because some 30 years ago, while living at home with the folks, I created my first railroad - the Turtle Creek and Niagara. I have been away from the hobby for almost 25 years and am considering getting back into it in a few months. I recently subscribed to MR and then tonight peeked at the forums as first steps towards this goal.

One of my other hobbies (and my professional trade) is computers, and I was excited about what I might find in railroading now that computers are much different from what they were in the 1970s. Other than some articles on DCC, I have been sorely disappointed! One would think we would have the ability to use the PC as a CAD/CAM resource to help build models (download the plans from trains.com or have a CD ROM in the magazine) or lots of discussion around how one can interface one’s PC network into their layout, much like musicians do with the MIDI standard. But it seems that the hobby has pretty much ignored the tech revolution…although one might argue that is a good thing! [:)] I guess I am more surprised than anything.

I have to agree with the recent sentiment about MR - while it is terribly impressive to see layouts that fill houses, it is hardly representative of what I can possibly do, and I do admit to being scared off because I couldn’t be the next John Allen. (I’m assuming John Allen is still in the model railroading pantheon…? It has been a long time!) The article on the Southern Ry was exactly what I hate seeing - this guy has a three car garage that he converted 100% to his layout, AND he owns his own caboose(!) which he is restoring. If we take his income, or even his $$ invested in the trains, I’m sure it ranks into the top 0.1% of the nation - hardly representative of the ‘common man.’ This is hardly what the hobby needs to regain its popularity.

My biggest disappointment has to be that MR hasn’t tried to focus on the type of layouts that I could afford or fit into my apartment. I think I

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Wow,
Here’s my first post over here in a long time. While I don’t always agree with Brakie on his tactics, (Hey Brakie, its Lee from over in Atlas Land), I have to agree with his comments on the 4x8 mentality that is predominantly offered to MR’s novice readers. These layouts are consistently dull, generally un-realistic, and once built, terribly inconvenient to live with.

The criticism being out of the way, let me give a few pointers to our young friend…

You mentioned that you are using N scale. God bless you. You are one of US. Next, take your 4x8 sheet of whatever it is, plywood, foam or what have you, and cut it in half down the middle, so you have two pieces 2’ x 8’. Place these in the corner of the room, in the shape of an L. You now have a layout area of 10’ x 8’. You can safely use 11" radius track for your return loops.

You also have the length of run necessary for A) a decent passing siding, B) A reasonably long yard area of 4 or 5 tracks, C) opportunities for some switching in at least one area, D) some scenic variety, and most importantly E) a linear design that gives your trains more of a feel for going somewhere.

Some other tips I’ve learned over the years…
Never run your main line track parallel to the edge of the train table. Visually, it is TOO perfect. Real railroads are built in the real world. The follow crooked streams, or climb along a hillside. Aside from those midwestern grain haulers, tangent track is usually the exception, not the rule. Even if you intend to only run loopty loops, this will give you a much more appealing railroad to watch.

Second, don’t be in a big hurry to lay your track. Take your time, do it right. I used to tell my construction crews, if you don’t think you have time to do it right, what makes you think you have time to do it over? You’ll find that reliable track work is the key to satisfaction in this hobby.

Next, look at the published track plans for ideas,

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BRAKIE, as usual has hit on some of the fine points. Design it to operate in some prototypical manner, IE if it’s set in the fifties use coresponding structures, cars, trucks, etc. How should it operate? Much thought should go into this area. But let’s say we did all of our homework and built that neat little layout.,( some call this building phase the best part !!!) You want to watch the Choo choo’s run this is supposed to be the enjoyment phase. (Some folk’s never get here, primarily because as BRAKIE says it, “It’s too simple, not well thought out, doesn’t do much”). All of which translates into another Model Railroader that probably won’t hang in there with this hobby for a lifetime of enjoyment. I echo these thoughts - READ, READ READ, Measure twice, cut once. , but by all means build somthing that will sustain your interest for years not just til it’s built. THEN WHATshould I do? What other hobby is out there? I’ve been in this hobby for over 50 years and I still learn new methods find or build a better mousetrap, don’t be afraid to rip out something when your skills improve. Don’t fall in love with somthing you’ve done, it can always be redone & improved later.The stuff I did 10 years ago is not what I’m capable of today so there is always a metamorphisis that is ongoing on my layout. Some of my scenes have been tweaked 3 or 4 times.
Above all – ENJOY IT, IT IS

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Brakie, The issue for beginners is THE LAYOUT…I agree with you the Turtle Creek is nice; however, for the beginner wanting to run Modern (TODAY’s) Locomotives it’s not practical, but it gives the beginner some great ideas…What I’d like to see some of you old timers do is share some layout ideas…Layout’s for 4x8, 6x12, etc…Sure you can find them in books…But there is more to the layout and construction than seeing a layout in 2D form…M2C’sW…