A friend of mine who is the owner of a hobby shop, recently recieved an HO PRR K4 from MTH that was Tuscan Red. I’ve attempted to find out if this was even prototypical, but have been so far unsuccessful. If anyone out there knows where I might be able to find the info, or provide me with the info, I’d be grateful. Thanks, Joe.
I am certainly not an expert on all things PRR< but I have never heard of the whole loco being painted Tuscan. The only red I know of on K4’s would be the cab roof and tender deck, and that was Oxide Red, not Tuscan like the passenger cars. GG1’s now, those DID get painted Tuscan as well as Brunswick Green.
–Randy
I have a picture of the only Tuscan K-4 and some info on it. I will try to find it and pass it on.
Doc
There is no proof I know of that indicates the existance of a Tuscan K4 nor has there ever been confirmation in the Keystone the publication of the historical society. There has been a great deal of rumor and I know a guy who knows a guy who knew a guy who saw it type talk. Remember that all pictures of the era were black and white so photographic evidence is going to be hard to prove a color. What is going to happen to the MTH credibility of , “our engines are more accurate” sales pitch? As a PRR modeler with five K4’s I won;t be getting that one until somebody shows me something definitive like PRR shop documentation for its painting.
I too have never heard of a Tuscan K4. Maybe this is like those olive green Athearn PRR F units, and simply a made-up scheme?
Thanks to all who have answered so far. I too have never seen anything of the staem era in Tuscan. Unfortunately, I’m primarily a NYC and D&H person, so I figured I’d be bound to find someone who would know the PRR stuff, especially here! I will say this, my friend sold me one of the new MTH K4s at a very reduced rate, so I bought it. It’s the Brunswick one, and I was able to find all the info I needed on it, so I know it’s prototypical. The problem lies in the fact that, (as someone mentioned), all the photos I can find are B&W, so they all look the same. I’ve tried PRR websites, Fallen Flags.com, etc… Right now I’m waiting for a response from the PRR Historical Society.
I honestly think that MTH just painted a few in the Tuscan for no particular reason except PRR did use that color. Considering the K4 in question was sent in a special box as a “Dealer Appreciation” sort of thing. Too me, that’s akin to painting a streamlined Hudson in black and silver, “just because” it was one, (of many) schemes the NYC used. I don’t condone it, but if it’s what you like, so be it. What really strikes me odd, is I sent MTH an email asking where they got their info for the K4, and as of this date, still haven’t gotten a response. It’s been 2 weeks. Odd, no?
Thanks again, and keep sending me the info. As a former Investigator, I won’t quit until I know.
I used a Tuscan Red K-4 on the express passenger train when I designed and built the PRR exhibit at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. The rail historian on the project allowed this as “probable”.
Now I know that this is about as good as kissing your sister in terms of certainty, but it may be as good as you’re going to get. Now, this particular historian was really strict. I would bet anyone else’s answer would have been"yes". Besides, it’s a really eye-catching paint scheme.
clarke@dunhamstudios
The K-4 in question according to PRR historian Frederick Westing is #5409. He wrote about it in an article in Trains magazine. I will continue to search for the photos. I saw one in B&W and one in color.
Doc
As for the cab number, you are correct, it is numbered 5409. I really didn’t think it would have been “faked” but was more inclined to believe it was “probable” as previously mentioned.
I really believe that the prototype was probably painted that way with the intention of painting more and using them strictly for the Broadway Limited, etc…, but much like the Dreyfuss streamlined Hudson’s, cost became reality and the dreams drifted away in the clouds.
If you do find any color pictures, please let me know where I can find one.
Thanks-Joe
I suspect what you saw was Reid’s painting of one in Tuscan done for the article. The Altoona museum and the historical society have a love hate relationship with the museum taking numerous stances regarding equipment that are just plain wrong. I stand by my statement that no color picture exists and it is speculation until proven. Believe me when I say many of us would love to find proof that the engine was indeed painted that way.
Check out this link. http://p214.ezboard.com/fprrthsdiscussionweb30239frm2.showMessage?topicID=1230.topic
Ive heard of a couple back in the thirties. Way before my time!!! I read in an article that some of them were used in commuter service near Philly. and not on named trains that some think.
I saw the B&W photo a few years ago. There was information stating that the engine was painted Tuscan to match the Tuscan passenger cars that it pulled. After a short period of time it was painted back to the original color of DGLE.
Recently I saw a color photo of the same engine but since I read a previous article about it I skipped passed it. I don’t know whether I saw it one of the many books and magazines I get each month or if it was on the web. It was a right sided view of the engine and tender not the one mentioned on the PRRH&TS discussion link.
I am not familiar with the painting mentioned in the previous email.
Doc
Doc–I know that Pennsy ‘streamlined’ several of their K-4’s. Was perhaps one of the streamlined ones painted Tuscan? I’ve only seen photos of them in black and white, but I’ve always been curious as to what color the Pennsy painted them.
Tom
I have pictures of two of them in Effingham Illinois, my train watching spot. They were all dark Brunswick Green, which looked black after a few trips on the road.
The streamlined K4’s were a rather late experiment in the 40’s and color pictures exist of them proving they were indeed Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. They were designed to please the public while other railroads were dieselizing and adding streamlined trains.
I am hardly an expert but back when the PPR was my chosen prototype I assembled a decent collection of reference materials. I have never seen a Tuscan Red K4, either in photos or in calendar paintings. I looked through my reference materials and could find nothing that mentions even a rumor. However in Harry Albrecht’s self published book “Pennsylvania Railroad K-4s,” there is a B&W photo of a streamlined K-4 3678 that was in service on the Jeffersonian between NY, Philly and St Louis. The photo SEEMS to suggest that the casing covering the side running boards was a different color or shade than the boiler itself. Obviously this is merely suggestive and proves nothing. The only other “evidence” – and it is not evidence of a Tuscan Red K-4 – is that given that this was the self-styled Standard Railroad of the World there were an amazing number of variations within the class, including some one of a kind modifications that perhaps were short lived – air horns along the stack, unusual steam domes, different tenders and trailing trucks and stacks, varying degrees of streamlining etc.
I DO have recollections of seeing a red Pacific, but I no longer recall if it was a prototype (the Alton?) or something on John Allen’s HO scale Gorre & Daphetid!
Dave Nelson
The Alton had a red jacketed pacific and pictures exist of it.
I lived near Effingham Illinois and have actual pictures in my collection of two different streamlined K4’s at the coaling tower west of town, and the streamlined K4’s were not in red.
There are now several MTH K4’s on E bay with the max. price I have seen of $250.00. One of the ads also has pictures of the Tuscan engine and there is no way the PRR would have painted one that way even if proof does come out. The Tuscan would have replaced the DGLE and this engine no way replicates prototype painting practice. Also in the timeframe MTH is peddling as “Original” There would have been all over striping on the tender which isn’t there. Regardless of anyone’s viewpoint on MTH as a company this paint job is pure fantasy and not accurate in my opinion.
I know a lot about the PRR and their engines and I know they made at least one tuscan red k4. The most that I heard they made was 4.
Here is one of the stories I have heard about the the tuscan k4:
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I know very little about the Pennsy, but a quick google search turned up THIS. Wonder from whence came their proto info? [*-)]
Wayne