Still cleaning up my dad’s 681 everything is running perfect on it till i bring the uncoupler/ unload piece of track into the mix. Go to decouple the cars from the train and when i go to pull away the engine and tender just sits there like there’s a short and smoke comes out of the tender. Take the cars and tender off the track and the engine comes back to life. Happens every time i try and use the uncouple and every time no matter how far away it is from the uncoupler piece of track it effects the tender. Any ideas on what is causing this?
If the tender has a magnetic rear operating coupler, maybe the coupler assembly armature, on its bottom side, is staying open and touching the center power rail of the track section, causing the short circuit, the smoke, preventing the locomotive and tender from moving and as you know, is very dangerous.
Also, there maybe other problems, which other forum members can help you with.
Ralph
If it always was the one behind the tender that would of been my thought too but i can be 3 or 4 cars away and still get the same results. The remote uncoupler i have is the USC version not the 6009 or 6019 versions. I keep taking the tender apart also to see where it’s shorting in there and from what i see no visible damage is done so can’t tell where it is smoking from all i know is it is coming from inside the tender and not out from under it. I’m not even using the whistle either shouldn’t be drawing power in the tender yet it’s shorting there. Don’t want to risk the tender but thinking about trying again with the tender cap off to see if and where it smokes from.
Fox14120,
The Lionel 681, S-2 Loco. came with either a #2046W, or a #2671W tender, both having a whistle unit.
Also, if for some reason you have an early #2671W tender a few early ones came with a back-up light bulb in the rear end of the tender, which might be another possible cause of a short circuit.
From what you’re describing sounds like a short circuit is occuring from the tender’s whistle motor, or relay and by having the tender body/shell off, you might be able to see, maybe arcing/spark, from either of these two units.
Ralph
Yeah i have the 2046W just got the boxes for each piece out storage tonight didn’t think about looking under the tender for that info. Never got to testing it on the track took the cap off and looked it over again and everything looked good inside but when i got to looking at the wires as they came out under the tender and head to the rollers noticed the insulation on one of the wires near the holes going into the tender was brittle and cracked so replaced both wires leading to the rollers with prob 12 or 14 guage wire (over kill i know but all i had around here). Cars are unhooking and hooking back up no problem so far. Don’t know if it’s completely fixed yet but thanks for the help so far Train-O.
Fox14120,
I had bought a used whistling tender and every now and then there would be a spark from under the tender, just rear of the front truck. Upon inspection everything looked fine, but then I noticed that the solder joint, where the hot wire was soldered to the pick-up roller’s contact lug, was too high, so when the roller road the center rail’s high point, the solder joint would contact the metal frame of the tender and cause a brief spark.
I had to resolder the joint connection.
Something so little and undetected can cause great harm and damage, even though there’s initially a low amount of voltage.
Ralph
Yeah thought about that too the solder looked original. When i soldered it i did a solder on each side of the contact to keep them small. The hard part on fixing this thing too is i know the history and the owner and that most the problems with this train set prob came up when sitting in their boxes for 25+ years. My dad got the set when it was new back in the early 50’s and my dad also knew what he was doing when it came to electrical stuff so he had the knowledge and all the equipment to test and fix it here in the basement. Also the way the layout is there wasn’t much to do on it but run it in a circle and come down the side track and use the coupler/action piece and then go back out on the main loop he would of noticed if it wasn’t working back then. Played around some more last night with it and looks like the problem is fixed. Again thanks for the help.
Most of the good post war goodies I bought were second hand and a lot of them had dried/cracked wire insulation problems, especially where the wire comes into contact with the frame’s sharp opening, where the wire goes through, as you’ve experienced. But, the BIG ole’ glob of solder joint is the best, because it’s a little harder to readily detect.
Due to bad wire insulation,on some of my older tenders, I’ve had shorting problems at whistle motors, whistle relays, rear lamp sockets, the opening in the frame, the rear opr. coupler’s bottom assembly plate staying open and the best, the good ole’ BIG glob of solder, where the wire and roller lug are joined.
I believe, you have eliminated your shorting problem.
Ralph
Yeah i know they wanted to make sure those wires didn’t go anywhere those globs keep them in place usually it’s the wire that gives out before the solder from what i’ve read. Hard to believe something that old of technology and as simplistic in it’s design can be that hard to troubleshoot if you don’t know to check and see if the solder isn’t shorting it out. Yeah it looks like the problem is fixed now even though i never had problem with the whistle can tell it’s running stronger and not as much of a drain on the track when used.
Fox14120,
You’re right about the solder joint keeping the wire in place, but what I forgot to mention is that the overly BIG glob is mostly done, not at the factory, but by someone who don’t know about soldering and causes a sloppy job.
I’ve had mysterious shorts happening on operating cars, because of sloppy solding jobs, or cracked insulation, that where in inconspicuous locations on the car.
The one that I didn’t realize, untill I read about it in Greenbergs repair of Lionel trains, was the old opr. milk car with the elctro-couplers. On each truck the contact sliding shoes provides not only juice to operate the car, but also to operate the coupler knuckles.
What I perceived to be a short circuit, causing an overheated coupler and truck, was in fact a normal design flaw, a necessary evil, because the operating voltage for both the couplers and car’s ejection mechanism is supposed to be for short periods of time, not a continuous flow of juice. I’m sure there are other cars with this same design.
Ralph
Yeah i’m learning quickly how with trains especially the older ones even though some of these cars and accessories should be simple mechanics and electrical schemes since technology wasn’t that advanced 40-60 years ago there’s alot more going on with them then it looks. Thought i had it figured out basically how all the accessories and cars are triggered then tonight i was given some Lionel stuff that i’ve never seen or heard anyone on here or any site talk about. Some of the stuff i figured out what they do and how they work others still up in the air on and not sure if it’s pre or post war stuff and some even if it’s O or Standard.
No. 152 gate (was made pre & post they said the silver one was post but is bare metal considered post?)
No. 153-C Auto Accessor Contactor (Post or Pre)
No. 88 Control Switch (can’t find anything on it)
UTC Universal Lockon (can’t find anything on it don’t even know if it’s O or Standard)
Fox14120,
I’m sorry, I’m unable to help you with your latest items, as I don’t know, or heard of some of them.
Ralph
No problem like i said i did a search on most of the stuff and nothing or very little came up. Post War Library only had what i know about the gate.
Have you checked all the possibilities? Like did you wire the UCS track correctly, is anything hanging down on the bottom of the tender that should not be there? Did you wire or rewire the tender correctly?
Did you try to use the uncoupling feature with just the engine and tender or maybe try just the tender and see what happens when you test it by itself on the UCS track. The tender if I am correct uses an electro magnet to uncouple and gets power from a sliding shoe on the bottom of the tender. Also is the track hitting the tender or any other cars on the train?
These are some possibilities to give attention to on post war stuff.
Lee F.