Unofficial successor to the Rock Island?

Murphy, you must be referring to the track that is left in the parking lot at the lumber yard. I used to park in the lot just to the northwest of that track. I could see the RI bridge over the Sioux River from my office window in the DM&E office building. The 2 stall roundhouse you are referring to was the Illinois Central’s, not Rock Island.

Gabe, the Rock Island pulled back from Sioux Falls to Rock Rapids IA in the spring of 1972 because of a bridge washout at Lester IA. The portion from Rock Rapids to Sibley IA was abandoned around 1977. There is still a bridge and trackage in Rock Rapids, along with a caboose and depot. They are part of the county historical society museum. The portion from Sibley east was abandoned within the last year. Matt

Greyhounds,

I ran to my dictionary very confident that I would find the definition that described exactly what I was meaning. To my great surprise nothing, and I got the exact same definition as you.

Gothic, in my understanding, is often used as an adjective used in conjunction with literature, movies, or architecture. For instance, a gothic building/ is not a crude or barbaric building but a large cavernous building with a rich history that lends the impression that it would take years to explore and know every part of it. Castles and churches are often describled as gothic despite lacking anything to do with a germanic origin. Similarly, a movie or literarry story set in line with a deep underplot is often called gothic–like dracula, mob movies, King Arthur movies, etc. Even though their story might be similar to other movies/stories, the historical backdrop adds a unique substance to the movie/story.

You now have me doubting a term I have often heard.

hmm.

Gabe

P.S. In this usage, the Rock has a gothic element in my opinion. Like a cavernous castles that seem to have branches, spires, and anti-chambers goi

Gabe, the RI line that ran through Clear Lake ended in Watertown and was removed in 1966. I was under the impression that it came in from Minnesota, not Sioux Falls.

If it came up from Sioux Falls, what towns did it go through?

There might be some RI yard tracks in use in Watertown. Watertown once had rail coming in from 9 different directions, but now it’s down to 2.

You’re right. The roundhouse was IC. I was one railroad off. RI roundhouse, from what I’m told, was behind the post office, by the river. That was before my time.

If you missed the turn heading out of that parking lot, and hit the building, you would have been in my office.[:)]

That line to Watertown did not come up through Sioux Falls. I believe it came up through Rock Rapids, Luverne, and Pipestone.

Of the RI lines still in use today, were they profitable lines for RI, and that carried through, or is it because they were/are profitable for the owners who came later?

All this talk of the Rock has me wondering – what were they originally established to be? I’m guessing that they’re a granger road that just kind of kept growing and diversifying as time went on. Is that the case?

I’m going to question this.

The Union Pacific didn’t control the routing of frieght. The shippers did. If a shipper wrote CNW-Fremont-UP on the bill of lading the freight had to move CNW. If a shipper wrote RI-Council Bluffs-UP on the bill of lading the freight had to move Rock Island. UP couldn’t ignore the bill of lading.

The UP could try to influence the shippers, but it couldn’t control the shippers.

It makes perfect sense for the UP to try to influence freight of the Golden State Route when UP didn’t own the route - why on Earth would they want freight to move on other railroads instead of the UP?

As you clarify here it would be wrong to blame the Union Pacific for the Rock Island debacle and demise. When the offer for merger was extended circa 1966 or so Union Pacific badly wanted access to Chicago and Rock Island slobbered all over themselves offering it. Although the ICC may have been a mite slow on the draw in this regard one cannot focus all of the blame upon them. Most of the blame must eventually all upon Rock Island itself because, as I understand it, they footed the merger study bill at the expense of infrastructure maintenance; by the time the UP-CRI&P merger was approved sometime in the mid-70’s and UP took off their rose-colored glasses and took a hard look into the future Rock Island was essentially a bankrupt railroad and in such a state of disrepair that it was virtually unsalvagable.

Someone once said that, except for Des Moines, Rock Island didn’t go anywhere that someone else didn’t go by a shorter route!

A few points about the Rock Island:

  1. My favorite all time article in Trains was written in 1985 in the all Iowa issue and was about working Culver Tower in Muscatine. The same author recently penned an article on The Fast Freight, about a hot auto parts train. It was during the MH era, probably about 2004. Both articles were excellent. The Culver Tower article gave a very good overview of the Rock’s operations in and around the Muscatine area, which was a major originator of business for them.

  2. I travel to Muscatine about 2 times a year and always take the scenic route from Davenport to Muscatine along Rt 22, which is now DME until today, then it is CP. What a scenic route, particularly in the spring along the Mississippi River thru the small towns of Buffalo, Montpelier and Fairmont. Almost always a train will be on the line.

  3. Legend has it the Crown family of Chicago did quite well on buying Rock Island bonds and then cashing out after the liquidation.

  4. David P. Morgan referred to the Rock Island as the line that went everywhere the CB&Q did, only on a more indirect or slower route. Other than Chicago - Quad Cities, an ultra short haul, there really wasnt too much they did really well or had the market share. One could make the arguement their Chicago - Omaha line is valuable today as is the Spine Line from KC to Twin Cities. My DeskMap Systems 36 x 48 wall map of railroads almost has a “should have been” route from Memphis west. I agree with the early poster…what was ATSF thinking? Of course the Golden State Line is a heavy duty mainline. Some have opined it is a better Chicago - LA route than the Transcon Line.

ed

A piece of the Rock went to a lot. Of those now running the remains, would they take more today if it were still to be had? What about others that largely did not get much, if anything, of the Rock?

Assume abandon trackage linking larger markets was still intact and needing rehabilitation.

Who might want the long way from St. Louis to Kansas City?

What, if anything would UP want tying into the Golden State Route/Twin Cities to Kansas City they now hold? Allerton, IA all the way to Chicago? Allerton, IA to the old CNW at Clinton, IA?

Would BNSF and UP fight over Tuccumcari to Memphis?

Would BNSF want the old Zephyr Rocket route from Burlington, IA to the Twin Cities? Would ag traffic online make it worth keeping as a Twin Cities to St. Louis route in addition to the same through Galesburg, IL?

Omaha to Denver, would anybody want it as a through route? Omaha to Chicago was called redundant 30 years ago. Iowa Interstate made it go. Would Iowa Interstate to the Rockies be realistic?

Houston to Kansas City, any takers? CP gets to Kansas City on the old Milwaukee.

What ifs that never will be offered as entertaining speculation.

Some random thoughts:

St. Louis to Kansas City would be redundant except, perhaps, for a shortline operator. And that has never happened so it is unlikely to happen in the future.

Everyone seems to think BNSF would want the Choctaw, but I think they would be short-hauling themselves. Might have more (but marginal) value to UP these days.

Omaha to Denver. Local traffic base looks very thin compared to Omaha east. Lots of miles and questionable overhead traffic possibilities since IAIS has little to start with.

Houston to Kansas City. A long haul but great traffic potential for northbound chemicals and southbound grain.

John Timm

If you go back to the 1850’s, the Rock Island connected the then new Illinois & Michigan canal with Rock Island & the Mississippi river. They had the first MS river bridge. They were in competition with the C&NW to be the first link from the then new Union Pacific transcontinental line in Omaha. they had built east thru Joliet to Chicago. I’m not sure if the Alton route had already been built from Joliet into Chicago.

They may have ended up being the 3rd or 4th carrier to go from Chicago to somewhere & name your city. Take your pick of between MILW, C&NW, CB&Q, or the Rock between Chicago & Minnesota, Omaha, Kansas city, etc. This may have worked when you could split UP traffic 4 ways to be sent to Chicago & points east. Then you have other relationships between PRR, NYC etc in Chicago to points west. I don’t know how much online traffic the Rock generated. This may be an area where the IAIS provides better service with a local touch.

Who might want the long way from St. Louis to Kansas City?

I don’t think there would be a lot of takers on this segment- the line was very roundabout with tight curves and height restricted tunnels that made it an operational headache. When the SSW bought this segment as part of the “Cotton Rock” transaction, they immediately realized the benefits were few to rebuilding the line and instead were able to acquire trackage rights via the ex-MP KC-StL.

What, if anything would UP want tying into the Golden State Route/Twin Cities to Kansas City they now hold? Allerton, IA all the way to Chicago? Allerton, IA to the old CNW at Clinton, IA?

In the late 90s the UP was VERY interested in reviving the Allerton-Seymour segment to connect the Spine Line to the ex-MILW IMRL route as an alternate running route for KC-Chicago trains. If the whole south Iowa “Golden State Route” segment was available now I’d think the UP would be very interested in it. As would the KCS who would also see the potential in reaching up into the Twin Cities and Iowa grain belt. The main snag is the dual ownership double track from Truman Drawbridge to Polo- the RI and MILW each owned a track and any approval of a deal had to go through both railroads before finalization (which was the main reason SP backed out of getting the old MILW in the late 80s- the CNW got in the way).

Would BNSF and UP fight over Tuccumcari to Memphis?

With the UP having the old T&P across Texas that connected to the MP to Memphis I’d say the BNSF would be the more likely suitor. They could have really used a more direct West Coast-Memphis route than the one they use now to compete with the UP’s old T&P/MP route.

Would BNSF want the old Zephyr Rocket route from Burlington, IA to the Twin Cities? Would ag traffic online make it worth keeping as a Twin Cities to St. Louis route in addition to the same through Galesburg, IL?

Someone wrote:

"The UP/RI merger was kind of like a guy proposing marriage, while continuing to date others. In the 1960s they financed some track and rolling stock, but not much traffic. In the early 1970s UP’s Kenefick proposed to send enough traffic via RI to make it profitable. In return, the RI would short haul itself by not soliciting traffic via Denver or Santa Rosa/Tucumcari. This after the merger had dragged thru the ICC procedings.

The CNW jumped at the offer. In hindsight, the RI probably should’ve done this. At the very least they should have realized the merger wasn’t going to happen and looked for other options. Talking with ex-RI people, too often they say the attitude of RI’s management was don’t put a lot of money into the railroad, let the UP fix things when they got the RI."

I detect revisionist history being spun. UP initially filed to merge with the Rock. Had the merger taken place, all the roads that connected UP with Chicago and points east thereof would have seen their Chicago-Council Bluffs-UP traffic begin to dwindle. How come? A merged UP-Rock could solicit one-road passage to Chicago, and thereby influence shippers to use that routing. Other players in that connecting market–MILW, IC (later ICG), CB&Q, and especially CNW (which then enjoyed the largest share of that market and therefore had the most to lose)–protested like crazy against the consolidation. For Good reason. CNW in particular, recognizing the political aspect of railroad regulation, sucked up to every senator and congressman in sight, desparately lobbying themn to “influence” the Commission to nix the prospective consolidation. I recall a mid-1970s article in (I think) Forbes Magazine ranking corporate expenditures on lobbying, and

Where was the Rock Island line in Muscatine? While I might be old enough to have seen and vaguely remember the Milwaukee Road there and the abandoned portion of the yard by the Mississippi there, I was only about 2 when the Rock vanished and really have no idea about their line to Muscatine other than it was one of their first lines completed following the completition of the Mississippi River bridge in the 1850s. I know there are some spurs going off of the once again CP/Soo mainline, including one into GPC, one going west from the in use portion of the former MILW then CP/Soo then IMRL, then IC&E, then CP/Soo again yard, and one near the HON factories, but have very little idea about what was there in the past. It sounds like a need to find a copy of that old issue given that I would (and still do actually) frequently walk down to the river to see the barges and trains while visiting my grandparents. The former MILW line in Muscatine was actually one of the first places where I e

Did the CNW ever considered purchasing what is now IANR from Manly to Cedar Rapids when they purchased the Spine Line? IANR has made this a grain hauling line from points north down to CR. UP still owns some Ex-CGW trackage around Waterloo serving the John Deere tractor assembly plant which IANR works and sends tractors down to CR for UP connections. I would think that this line would have produced some revenue for the CNW.

Jeff

That is what Kenefick said in an interview. I have a magazine that I’d have to look for, I think it was Vintage Rails, now defunct. I don’t know if it was done for that or a reprint of a previous interview. He said something to the effect that the UP and RI should become best friends. The RI balked, Larry Provo jumped at the chance for the CNW. I believe i

[quote user=“greyhounds”]

I’m going to question this.

The Union Pacific didn’t control the routing of frieght. The shippers did. If a shipper wrote CNW-Fremont-UP on the bill of lading the freight had to move CNW. If a shipper wrote RI-Council Bluffs-UP on the bill of lading the freight had to move Rock Island. UP couldn’t ignore the bill of lading.

The UP could try to influence the shippers, but it couldn’t control the

[quote user=“billio”]

Someone wrote:

"The UP/RI merger was kind of like a guy proposing marriage, while continuing to date others. In the 1960s they financed some track and rolling stock, but not much traffic. In the early 1970s UP’s Kenefick proposed to send enough traffic via RI to make it profitable. In return, the RI would short haul itself by not soliciting traffic via Denver or Santa Rosa/Tucumcari. This after the merger had dragged thru the ICC procedings.

The CNW jumped at the offer. In hindsight, the RI probably should’ve done this. At the very least they should have realized the merger wasn’t going to happen and looked for other options. Talking with ex-RI people, too often they say the attitude of RI’s management was don’t put a lot of money into the railroad, let the UP fix things when they got the RI."

I detect revisionist history being spun. UP initially filed to merge with the Rock. Had the merger taken place, all the roads that connected UP with Chicago and points east thereof would have seen their Chicago-Council Bluffs-UP traffic begin to dwindle. How come? A merged UP-Rock could solicit one-road passage to Chicago, and thereby influence shippers to use that routing. Other players in that connecting market–MILW, IC (later ICG), CB&Q, and especially CNW (which then enjoyed the largest share of that market and therefore had the most to lose)–protested like crazy against the consolidation. For Good reason. CNW in particular, recognizing the political aspect of railroad regulation, sucked up to every senator and congressman in sight, desparately lobbying themn to “influence” the Commission to nix the prospective consolidation. I recall a mid-1970s article in (I think) Forbes Magazine ranking corporate exp

Jeff, I’ll comment bit by bit on your response.

One reason Rock management may have been ambivalent about the proposed merger was that UP was even then a giant and the ROCK, a veritable pigmy; UP had bucks (meaning access to capital), and ROCK couldn’t afford to pay for a used portapotty. By no means a marger of equals, there would be absolutely no question as to which would be the controlling merger partner, and consequently, many ROCK people may not have looked forward to too secure a future at UP.

You point out that that UP needed the Rock more than the ROCK needed UP. Absolutely! Actually, for strategic reasons, UP had long sought direct access to Chicago and (secondarily) St. Louis, with their enormous traffic generation potential, plus direct access to those gateways would provide UP with a direct connection with the eastern trunk lines. ROCK offered one possibility, but there were several others. For the ROCK, there were ZERO other white knights to save it from a long, slow side into Chapter 11.

Regarding “routing agreements to benefit each other,” there are no such things, as that is an anti-trust violation. You can have friendly and unfriendly connections (for a friendly connection, think Western Pacific-Salt Lake City-DRGW; an unfriendly example, SP-El Paso-MoP), where interchange traffic is expedited, and the sales force of each carrier solicit joint routing, but any formal agreement on paper constitutes an anti-trust no-no. Big-time.

When you say opine that the ROCK management is responsible for its demise, I’m inclined to cut them a little more slack.&