Good morning all
I see that that #844 and #261 both have the same wheel configuration but are they close to identical?
I was able to meet and take pictures the last two times #844 came through St. Louis and was just wondering if they were identical.
That whistle on #844 is awsome. [:D]
Happy trails
Lee
The long and short of it is probably, “in the ball park, but not identical.”
Here is some rough dimensional data for the UP engines:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/?page=up
Here is comparable data for the Milwaukee engines:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/?page=cmstpp
This just scratches the surface, and to get more detail, you would really want to look at detailed specification cards and design drawings. External combustion locomotives weren’t simply platforms for a prime mover: every aspect of the design affected operating qualities such as tractive effort, speed, horsepower, etc. The visible characteristics of a steamer aren’t simply aesthetic, like a diesel cowling: they are intimately connected with performance.
Probably more than you wanted to know- the good news is that models of both are pretty easy to come by, there have been plenty made in the past of the UP 800s, and Broadway Limited just released a 261.
Another difference is 844 burns No 5 Fuel Oil, MILW 261 burns coal. MILW 261’s tender rides on two 3 axle trucks. UP 844 has a 4-10-0 pedestal tender (also called a centipede tender). 844 has smoke lifters, 261 does not.
The list goes on and on.
Thanks for the responses.
I am inpressed by the depth of railroad knowledge on this forum. [bow]
Have a good one.
Lee
Not identical, but “cousins”. They were both built by ALCO ( the American Locomotive Company ). They were both built in 1944, #261 in July, #844 in December. They were considered “state of the art” and some of the last steam ordered by each railroad. Though both are equipped with Boxpok drivers, #261 are 74" in diameter, #844 are 80". #844 originally burned coal and was later converted to oil.
Go to steamlocomotives.com and click on wheel arrangements to bring up 4-8-4. From there just follow links until you reach the railroads and locos in question. You can get all the technical data plus pix for both. You can find weight, length, all the specs you could want.
Hi
Very helpfull Guys. Thanks again.
I just wish I could have caught the Challenger when it was here in 2010.
Happy days.
Lee
During WW2, the War Production Board didn’t allow ‘new’ locomotive designs - you had to use established, proven ones. Because of that, the Rock Island bought some 4-8-4 engines that were identical to Milwaukee 261 and her sisters. (I don’t remember right now which came first, i.e., which was a copy of which.) Now that BLI is making an HO Milwaukee 261, it will be interesting to see if they come out with a Rock Island version in the future.
I think the Rock Island ones came first. They are 1st cousins; 844 is a little further removed but still close.
The CRI&P R-67 4-8-4’s came first. The MILW S-3 and D&H Northerns were based on them.
Jim
The war production limits forced the B&O to get EM-1 2-8-8-2s rather than diesels. The EM-1s were some of the best locomotives that the B&O ever owned, but it wasn’t their idea to get them. They never wanted them.
Looking at the specs for the prototypes, different bore and stroke, different tractive efforts and driver sizes…
Changing any of these features will make a locomotive perform differently… The one thing about models, is the look can be the same and the ability as a model the same but in real life these charactoristics make the locomotive an individual design and they are ordered for specific purposes…
Coal and oil fired in models are visual differences but in real life its for necessity and economoics…
As modeling points of view, these american machines are magnificent and the variations of these 4-8-4’s make for collecting, a very interesting point… I am amazed at the amount of different locomotives built with the same wheel arrangement and yet totally different internally…
Hey
I ran across a picture of another operating 4-8-4 Atchson Topeka & Santa Fe on Rail pics. picture ID # 598516
I didn’t realise there were that many in service.
Enjoy.
Lee
Respectfully, an EM-1 is a 2-8-8-4…
Sheldon