I have found no information in the www, so can someone tell me which types of turbines where used in the UP´s gas turbine locomotives? Were they standard aircraft turbines or special developed for the railroad use?
Thanks, Michael
I am quite surprised you found nothing. The link below has many hits to keep you busy for quite a while.
Rich
Anybody find the answer to his question in those links?
I’ve always wondered where GE got their rail turbines-- I assume they’re no relation to jets for any aircraft that was flying in 1950, but what else would GE be building turbines for then?
TIMZ;
Follow that link and then chase the subsideary links provided by Wikipedia (underlined words).
Can start with this for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine-electric_locomotive
Weird website, but some good turbin photos:
http://dummidumbwit.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/union-pacific-gas-turbines/
Click on this web site for General Electric and then scroll down to Gas Turbine Locomotives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive
Searches off these web sites should give you a pretty good start to find what you might be looking for–Good Luck!
Try this site it has the technical data and notes on the UP Turbines. Click on the road numbers for technical data.
Lots of links, but nobody seems to have found answers.
Does anyone know, for instance, whether the turbine in the original GE demonstrator was designed from the start for locomotive use? What was its pressure ratio and mass flow? How did its rating vary with air density?
TIMZ:
This is a head scratcher for someone not a 'techie"
Chapter ten of the following title covers Turbines and seems to have a lot of tech style info; hopefully this will get you closer.
I am suspecting that the turbines used were an adaptation of a turbines used as a stationary power source, but I am not 100% on that.
Here’s another link to English Electric’s Turbines, capped by the GT-3 Turbine locomotive:
http://www.enuii.org/vulcan_foundry/oddities/gt3.htm
And this book seems to be close to what you are looking for as well includes some of the info you are looking for in its PART1. You also might try searching for info on General Electric’s Turbine Locomotives, as well.
The GTEL locomotives used “Aeroderivative” Gas turbines…basically the gas generator part of the turbine was modified from an aircraft design while the power section was designed for industrial/power applications. The General Electric marine gas turbines that power most US Navy Surface ships (with the exception of Nuclear Aircraft Carriers) are also of this this type (in this case in the same engine family as the models GE made for the MD DC-10).
There are several forum members with a backround in Mechanical Engineering background who can explain this better than I…
This may be a question with a multi-part answer. There were 2 main series of turbines - 4,500 HP ‘Little Blows’, 8,500 HP ‘Big Blows’, plus a demonstrator or two. I would not be surprised if the design evolved from ‘off-the-shelf’ aircraft and power units to those custom-specialized for railroad use.
A good book - but perhaps with more photos and less technical info of this sort than might be desired here - is TURBINES WESTWARD, by Thos. R. Lee, copyright 1975, Int’l. Std. Book No. 0-916244-01-6, U.S. Library of Congess Catalog Card No. 75-20985, 184 pgs., self-published by T. Lee Publications, 2804 Goodrich Circle, Manhattan, Kansas 66502 - mine is a Second Printing from Oct. 1977; printed by AG Press, also in Manhattan, Kansas. Since that was 30+ years ago, I doubt if Mr. Lee is still alive or at that address, as well as the printing company. Youo may be able to find a copy on-line from a bookseller that specializes in railroad-related books.
On page 184 is related how a multi-fuel aircraft turbine design - the Northrop Air Force XT-37, capable of 10,000 HP for the B-35 “Flying Wing” and the B-52 bombers, later known as the Turbodyne, was considered for railroad use by the UP in 1947. When the Turbodyne project and Corporation was disbanded, the technical data was transferred to GE’s Gas Turbine Division at its Schenectady, new York plant in 1950. An interesting quote from that page: "Features of the Turbodyne engine were reported to have been incorporated in General Electric’s later gas turbine designs.‘’
Hope this is helpful.
- Paul North.
They were GE Frame 5 engines. These were substantially under rated even at 10,000 HP. A 1950s Frame 5 is easily capable of 25,000HP in powerplant use, where they are generally fueled with natural gas. Their compression ration was 6.5-1. You should have no trouble getting info on them from GE since many are still in service. There nothing in common with aircraft engines here. A frame 5 weighs about 25 tons and no aircraft of that era could have even lifted it.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/75321/904483.aspx#904483
Copied to heat up the link! [C):-)]
Copied to heat upthe link! [C):-)]
I saw a video about the turbines. It ran a hour or so & I believe it was put out by Pentex so I would check there web siite to see if the video is still available
They were a sight to see when they came through Kearney Nebraska. You could see the eastbounds for about three miles or so and it was a plume of black oilsmoke with a headlight atttached. There was a general order issued to all operating crews to issure that the units were not spotted under a bridge, becaue the exhast temp was almost1200degrees and the story goes that it melted a small bridge near Cheyenne Wyoming Larry
The following are excerpts from The Gas Turbine Electric Story by David I Smith of General Electric. David gave me a preliminary copy in 1986, shortly before he retired from GETS at David had intentions of having it printed in a small book or in a magazine such as Trains, to my knowledge it has never been printed. David has since passed away, so I hope that I am not breaking copyright. David Smith literally lived with the Union Pacific Gas Turbine locomotives from beginning to end. In Dave Smith’s words:
“UPRR WANTS MORE HORSEPOWER (1955-56)
Although these (first series) were called 4500 HP units, they were not really that big. Transmission efficiency took them down to about 3800 HP and if we went on tailcone control, as we did at high ambients and altitudes, the power was reduced some more.
Mr. Neuhart, Superintendent of Motive Power, Union Pacific Railroad, told us that on the next order of 30 locomotives, he wanted 7000 horsepower at
What is this “transmission” that is repeatedly referred to? If it’s the reduction gearbox, then call it that. Otherwise the power “transmission” is gas turbine electric. You make it sound like they had to shift gears like a truck.
[quote user=“tleary01”]
When built, the big turbines did not have transition. Remember they were bought in 1958 with the intention of supplanting the 3900 and 4000 (Big Boy) steam engines that were still in service. Standard freight at that time was not scheduled and just moving it at any reasonable speed was enough for the railroad. The turbine shaft drove 4 main generators through a reduction gear box. The two pairs of generators were connected in parallel to provided DC electrical power at high amperes to 6 motors. When modified, transition did not change the motor connections as on diesel locomotives, instead the pairs of generators were switched from parallel to series connection to increase the motor voltage and the locomotive to a higher speed.
David explains the transition upgrade and the horsepower upgrade.
“LOCOMOTIVE UTILIZATION
With each generator feeding three motors, the voltage limit was reached at about 38 mph. This meant that we seldom got above 45 mph in service. I don’t know how we ever sold the railroad on this performance, but in any case we made a change in design. Instead of 4 generators, each with 3 motors, we put the generators in parallel by pairs, with 6 motors each. At 38 mph we would disconnect the generators and put them in series, ac
“Transmission” refers to the generators, traction motors and related electrical equipment. The generators have limits on voltage and current output which affects how much power can be transmitted from the output shaft of the gas turbine to the driving wheels.
UP’s gas turbines were GE single shaft industrial type. The Baldwin-Westinghouse Blue Goose had similar Westinghouse single shaft units. These tend to be large and heavy. The first rail use of lighter aircraft-derivitive gas turbines occured in 1967 and was the 400 hp, dual shaft UAC ST6, six of these being installed in each Turbotrain. (I believe the aircraft version was used for turboprop installations.) . In 1970, ANF industries installed a Turbomeca Turmo 3 dual shaft helicopter type gas turbine in one power car of. their ETG Trains for SNCF. The other power car retained diesel propulsion. This was followed by the highly successful RTG Trains using gas turbine hydraulic power trains in both power cars. The Rohr Turboliners, delivered to Amtrac in 1976, retained the same power train. One power car was later updated to a higher powered Turmo12 Turbine to improve fuel consumption. In 2002, Bombardier introduced the “Jet Train” locomotive powered by a dual shaft 5000 hp PW SD40 gas turbine (a derivitive of the PW150 turboprop engine). Alttough this locomotive, developed by Bombardier for the FRA, has been demonstrated extensively, it has yet to be used in commercial service.
Hope this answers more qustions than it raises
Jerry Pier.
Getting a little off topic. Here is a link to this loco.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetTrain
I am sure if you search, you will find more information.
Rich