In a few months I am moving to Japan and will be faced with having the Subject line dilemma. I have two newer CW-80 transformers and I am wondering if the lower voltage and Hz will negatively impact the transformers and ability to run my trains. I do not operate any trains with TMCC, Legacy, or Protosound; I have all conventional locomotives with basic whistles and horns with the exception of one locomotive with Trainsounds.
When we lived in Germany I had to buy a transformer that lowered the voltage from 220 to 110 so we could operate our US electronics, but this is the first time I will face the opposite.
There have been reports on the forum that the CW-80 does not work properly at 50 hertz. Do you know what frequency is used at your Japanese destination? Northeastern Japan (including Tokyo) uses 50 hertz, southwestern Japan (including Nagoya, Osaka, and Hiroshima) uses 60 hertz.
Actual transformers rated for 120 volts (or thereabouts) and 60 Hz should be fine on 100 volts at either frequency, with somewhat lower output voltage being the only drawback, as noted above. It’s the modern phase-control or other electronic “transformers” that are problematical.
Thanks for the prompt replies. I will be living near Tokyo where it will be 50 Hz so I am now a bit concerned about my CW-80s. In your research did it specify if the problems were with the original CW-80 that has had other problems or with all of them? If you do not recall or have that information readily available, I will be doing some research on my own.
Demay, Information from Google search: ==================================================================== 28 Oct 2008, 19:41 Baggage Porter Just got some new information from Lionel’s chief technical officer. 2009 model CW-80 and PowerMax 40W transformers have been revised to be 50Hz compatible. Lionel Legacy command control is also confirmed as 50Hz compatible as are all 2008 model Legacy equiped locomotives. Regards Nick Reference: http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5218 ==================================================================== wolverine49 Posted April 25, 2011 09:13 AM Lionel no doubt has a policy of continuous product improvement. However, they do not necessarily announce every change they make. The latest significant improvement that I’m aware of is the modification that allows the latest CW-80s to operate on 50 Hz current (beneficial to owners in certain foreign countries) as well as the everyday 60 Hz current here in the U.S.A. These are so marked both on the box and on the device itself. Reference: http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/57660482/m/6832967407 ==================================================================== By mong on November 27th, 2010 For those living overseas with 50hz mains, buy it [Lionel CW-80] with confidence, now it works ok. Reference: http://radiocontrolledhelicopter.us/2010/11/27/bestsellers-toys-lionel-trains-polar-express-train-set-o-gauge/
We have or have had some Europeans and other 50-hertz denizens on the forum who may chime in and give us a definitive answer; but my recollection is that the problem is general to both old and new CW-80s. This would make sense, since it uses the phase control technique to vary the voltage put out. Phase control reduces the voltage by connecting the output of a real transformer to the output terminals part way through each half-cycle of the sinusoidal waveform. This would require different timing at 50 hertz, where the half-cycle is 10 milliseconds long, than at 60 hertz, where the half-cycle is only 8 1/3 milliseconds long. Of course, one could design the thing to sense which power frequency is in use and alter its behavior accordingly; but that seems unlikely for a product intended almost entirely for the North American market, and which would need a step-down transformer anyway to be useful in the great majority of 50-hertz locations, where 230 volts is also the standard.
I suspect that your best course of action will be to equip yourself with some of the higher-voltage postwar Lionel transformers, like the KW, ZW, or Z. These will work fine in Japan and will be able to compensate for the lower voltage.
I’m with Bob here, from what I know of the electronic circuitry of the CW-80, it probably is a simplistic design.
My new ZW with the Power bricks also specifies 60hz only, so apparently Lionel doesn’t think the rest of the world exists.
As far as the other transformers, note that you will have to de-rate them somewhat for 50hz, since the impedance of the primary (and the secondary) will be lower at 50hz. I’ve been told, though I don’t know for sure, that the ZW (R) has a tighter core design and would work better on 50hz. I have one, and it’s different than the ZW, don’t know if the other statement is true.
The lower voltage will exactly compensate for the lower frequency. The core will be no more nor no less saturated at 100 volts, 50 hertz, than at 120 volts, 60 hertz. However, the output voltage will be lower, in proportion to the power-line voltage, that is, about 5/6 what we expect. But, by using one of the higher-voltage postwar transformers, you can still get about as much voltage as the CW-80 puts out. For example, the 21 volts that a ZW was designed to put out at 115 volts will drop to about 18.26 volts, which is almost the same as the 18-volt CW-80.
I didn’t pay a lot of attention at the time, but it seems to me that a year ago (or less?), posts at this forum or over at the other place indicated that Lionel had modified the CW-80 to work with 50Hz current, and that the revised models could be identified somehow or other. Wish I could be more definite. Some searching might turn something up.
Let me indulge in a bit of personal history. My first Lionel train set was, like me, pre-war. It came with a type H transformer–rated at 110-120 v, 25-40 cycles, 75 watts. The reason I a 25 cycle transformer was because I lived in Western NY. We received our power (25 cycles) from Niagara Falls. After WW II, Niagara-Mohawk, our power company, swept thru every town upgrading everyone and thing to 60 cycles. All the kids, except me, were given a new transformer. Boy was I upset!! The power company said my transformer was good enough for 60 cycle operation. Well, I still have and use that transformer, and my railroad empire has grown over the years. Don’t worry, that transformer only powers a few accessories these days. I have a KW for the rest.
Dick, there was no reason for any of those other kids to need new transformers either. A higher frequency is going to be easier on any transformer. Perhaps they weren’t using transformers at all, but rather number 107 reducers, which are unsafe at any speed.
Do you have a GG1? I have been amused by how the Lionel GG1 is not just cosmetically but also functionally like its prototype, in that it is powered by series-wound universal motors from an adjustable transformer (optionally) through a pantograph from an overhead wire. To that you could have added the prototypical frequency of 25 hertz.
Over at the OGR forum is a thread which touches on the CW-80 50hz issue. The revised units have a sticker on the bottom reading QC50-OK*.* There’s a photo of the underside of one. (This is the first thread I found – there may be others as well)
I wanted to update this thread with some issues I have been experiencing since I moved to Japan. I set up a simple loop of Fastrack under the Christmas tree. When I ran a brand new steam locomotive equipped with Trainsounds, the whistle, bell, and sounds continuously played. The locomotive ran properly otherwise. To troubleshoot, here’s what I did to no avail:
Made sure the train consisted of two or three lighted passenger cars. It did; same problem.
Checked the CW-80 for the “50 Hz OK” sticker. It has it.
Reversed the wires from the CW-80 to the track. Same problem.
Tried my other Trainsounds locomotive. Same problem.
Tried my other CW-80 with a “50 Hz OK” sticker. Same problem.
Reversed the wires for this transformer. Same problem.
Tried a 40W Powermax transformer. Same problem.
Tried a diesel locomotive only equipped with a horn. No pro
I did not see a rotary converter to fit your needs.
Perhaps you can make your own rotary converter by belting together a Japanese washing machine motor and a US motor, and use different pulleys to match the speeds for proper operation.
Another option is to use a pure sine wave inverter using a charger or car battery to power it:
Lastly, Lionel has a dealer in Europe that sells their products, and they must have electronics in them for 50 cycles, albeit 220 volts. Worthwhile giving them a call and see if you can upgrade your electronics: http://www.lionel-europa.ch/
Thanks for the replies. I spoke to Chief and viewed the items Larry sent me. I have an inverter I used to convert my car’s power to AC. Basically I plugged it into the car’s cigarette lighter and then I could plug 110 V, 60 Hz items into the inverter. How would I convert the power coming from one outlet in my house to a DC source I could then plug the AC inverter into?
I sent Georator a note asking them for information. However, I saw the prices for some of their equipment and it is much more than I want to spend for something I only need for three years. It also appears their equipment is intended for whole household inversion.