If Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor was being upgraded will all the flat junctions have to be converted to flying junctions? Why are there allot of flat junctions still around anyway.
Amtrak has had little control of what it owns…it was “given” or forced to purchase what existed and or exists. But it is probably not necessary to build flying junctions and eliminate all flat junctions in order to upgrade the railroad…in fact the PRR did such a good job of building flying junctions there aren’t any or many locations which would matter if at all; Those still around are because they are as usefull as they ever were, are too costly to replace or rebuild, and there has been no real reason or money to change them out. I really can’t think of one between Boston and D.C. that would benefit that much by being replaced with a flying junction. Upgrades would be to signal and power systems, track structure, and bridges whether over the railroad or the railroad over something. Of importance are movable bridges over commercial channels like Portal over the Hackensack in the Meadows and several others along the Shore Line. The physical use and abuse from age is the biggest factor involved with the need to apply upgraded technologies secondary Hey, the PRR and the NHRR built very good railroads for their time and for long into the future.
The PRR end of the NEC is pretty modern by US standards. It’s full of flying junctions that primarily separated PRR freight from passenger facilities (Phila, Wilmington, most notably) and others where other lines branced off (NY&LB, Trenton cut-off, Zoo in Phila) and grade separations from other roads. (can’ t think of a single one where another road crossed at grade)
The NH end, maybe not so much, but not sure that is a show-stopper for upgrading segments of the NEC.
IMHO, there is no way Amtrak is going to get all the money they say then need to raise speeds on the NEC. You will see some bits and pieces on the south end, mostly to redo the catenary, but any big construction projects, like new tunnels for Baltimore, will only come after much wailing and gnashing of teeth - and even they with tight oversight. There will be much hand wringing about the MNRR portion, but that will likely lead to even more hand wringing - and no action. What you see now, is it.
There are plenty of flat junctions that still exist on the NEC. While PRR eliminated most of them, there were still a few notable ones still left. New Haven has a lot of them but they were always cash strapped and apparently had other priorities. Today, Lane and New Rochelle are the only two major ones that still exist today and probably would be worth the cost of creating a flying junction.
A list of major “flat” junctions that still exist:
Landover, MD - was the split of the passenger line to Washington Union Station and the freight bypass to the Virginia Avenue Bridge.
Perryville, MD - Port Deposit branch to Harrisburg
Ragan (south Wilmington, DE) - was the split of the passenger line to downtown Wilmington and the frieght bypass.
Fair (Trenton, NJ) - was the connection to the Bel-Del line for freight to northwest Jersey and New England via the L&H.
Midway (Monmouth Junction) - connection to the old Camden and Amboy line to South Amboy where most New York Harbor coal trains went to.
Lane (Newark, NJ) - Lehigh Valley passenger connection to Newark and New York. All NJ Transit Raritan Valley trains coming off the old LV must cross over 4 mainline tracks to reach the outside eastbound tracks.
New Rochelle, NY - merging of the New Haven lines to Penn Station and Grand Central.
Stamford, CT - New Canaan branch (commuter)
South Norwalk, CT - Danbury Branch (commuter)
Stratford, CT - Waterbury Branch (commuter/freight)
New Haven, CT - merging of the Shore Line, Springfield Line and the old Inland mainline to Boston
What is the difference between a flying and flat junction?
Yeah, Merrily…I think you difined the big ones with only New Rochelle and possibley New Haven being of major concern, New Rochelle first. The others are really minor in that the number of diverting moves is small. South Norwalk and Stamford have at least one hourly move to reverse direction and really would be in the way anyway, Stratford is every hour but staggared hours. Lane is the same as the three CT branch interlockings and is most like Stratford in that it is as far away from Newark as Stratford is from the platforms at Bridgeport at less than five miles. In all four cases it would be neat if the diverging route trains didn’t have to cross the main at all and reverse its move on track (in fact I believe the Canaan trains do stay on one side of the ROW similar to Princeton Dinky). Either way it would mean a new running track which might or might not be used by main line traffic. With little freight traffic on the Corridor I don’t think the flat junctions are a problem and if there is a problem it belongs to the commuter agencies more than Amtrak.
A flat junction is just that: all tracks, switches, turnouts, and crossovers are on or at the same grade and thus moves will block other moves tying up the interlocking. A flyover would have an eastbound track that turns north to go onto a bridge up and over or down and under the other tracks for instance so that other traffic is not affected by the crossing over from right to left (east to north; not crossing and blocking west bound track or tracks).
New Rochelle, Shell Interlocking, can be converted to the flyover junction easly by using the extra land owned by MN east of the station, making track 6, the old 5th Harlem Shuttle track the westbound Penn Station track, and then another flyover on extra land south of the remaining flat junction on the line to Oak Point and the Hell Gate Bridge. It is doable, won’t cost a great deal, and would solve lots of problems.
Good list. I agree that most aren’t worth doing. Not sure that Lane is worth it. Don’t the LV/CNJ trains just scoot from Lane to Newark w/o crossing over? The only place I recall seeing an LV/CNJ train in Newark was on the west side platforms. Looking
No, one of the problems is that Raritan Valley Line trains into Newark to cross over the whole railroad go through Newark Penn Sta. across the river and double back to track 5. Some do it immediately, others tie up for a time before returning. Our Ridewithmehenry trippers went out to High Bridge and back about 2 or 3 weeks ago and I was surprised at the crossing over then seeing the train laid up in the Meadows just east of Harrison Sta. as we MU’d to Sec. Jct.
Improving Lane would go a long way towards increasing capacity on the Raritan Valley Line. Generally capacity on the Raritan Valley Line mainly involves getting on and off the Lehigh Valley Line (as well as being on it). When Newark-bound (and eventually New York Penn Station) trains merge on the Northeast Corridor, then have to crossover from track 4 to either Track 2 or Track 1. The goal of getting the Raritan Valley trains on to the eastbound tracks is to access Newark Penn Station tracks “A”, “1” and “2” so commuters needing to connect with PATH trains can have an easy cross platform transfer since the New York-bound PATH track is wedged into the platform between Tracks 1 and 2. Track “A” requires passengers to go downstairs to make the crossover to PATH but is only used as an capacity relief track. In either case, the layover yard in Harrison and the NJ Transit Meadow Yards in Kearny would require trains coming off the Lehigh Line to cross over from westward to eastward tracks at some point.
It is possible to crossover from Track 4 to Track 1 on the west side of the station by using the following crossing overs:
-
Track 4 to Track 3 @ Pointer Street (approx MP 10.18)
-
Track 3 to Track 2 @ Murray Street (approx MP 9.85)
-
Track 2 to Track 1 @ Thomas Street (approx MP 9.75)
I would suggest a flyover would be helpful for Raritan Valley trains coming from Meadows/Harrison Yard who have to cross from th
Considering that Amtrak uses Metro North rails between New Haven and New Rochelle, it would be difficult for Amtrak to have much say in any upgrading junctions on this line, would it not?
Regarding the former NH New Canaan Branch: While some of the rush hour trains off the new Canaan branch run all the way to NY, most of the off hour trains shuttle between New Canaan and the mainline station at Stamford which they can reach on their own track. Last time (20 years ago) I used the branch, the shuttle arrived and departed from a northside platform so that they did not need to enter the 4 track NEC. The only branch trains that needed to cross opposing traffic were the northbound rush hour trains.
Still the same, MidlanMike. RIdewithmehenry trippers did it as part of a side trip GCT to New Haven just last year.
[quote user=“MerrilyWeRollAlong”]
oltmannd:
Good list. I agree that most aren’t worth doing. Not sure that Lane is worth it. Don’t the LV/CNJ trains just scoot from Lane to Newark w/o crossing over? The only place I recall seeing an LV/CNJ train in Newark was on the west side platforms. Looking on Google maps, I don’t even see that you can all the way over to the two east mains from Lane.
Improving Lane would go a long way towards increasing capacity on the Raritan Valley Line. Generally capacity on the Raritan Valley Line mainly involves getting on and off the Lehigh Valley Line (as well as being on it). When Newark-bound (and eventually New York Penn Station) trains merge on the Northeast Corridor, then have to crossover from track 4 to either Track 2 or Track 1. The goal of getting the Raritan Valley trains on to the eastbound tracks is to access Newark Penn Station tracks “A”, “1” and “2” so commuters needing to connect with PATH trains can have an easy cross platform transfer since the New York-bound PATH track is wedged into the platform between Tracks 1 and 2. Track “A” requires passengers to go downstairs to make the crossover to PATH but is only used as an capacity relief track. In either case, the layover yard in Harrison and the NJ Transit Meadow Yards in Kearny would require trains coming off the Lehigh Line to cross over from westward to eastward tracks at some point.
It is possible to crossover from Track 4 to Track 1 on the west side of the station by using the following crossing overs:
-
Track 4 to Track 3 @ Pointer Street (approx MP 10.18)
-
Track 3 to Track 2 @ Murray Street (approx MP 9.85
Oltmannd, this is west of Newark Penn so would not involve slots or anything else off the Hoboken Division. Westbound RV trains leave Newark Penn from Track five and got the Lane and veer right along the old LV connection. Eastbound trains have to crossover all tracks to get to Track 1 or A at Newark Penn. As an aside there are several “slots” open off the Hoboken Div. into NYP which are presumed to be for additional services from Dover, Montclair, Gladstone, and even Andover and Scranton with dual power. Likewise, I believe there are open slots for RV trains for which the dual power was said to be purchased.
But has been indicated, most improvements to flat junctions would benefit the commuter agencies more than Amtrak.
Henry6, I rode the Danbury line about 25 years ago and I remember the branch entered directly onto the NH main at S Norwalk. I see it has a similar pattern of shuttles and thru trains as has the New Canaan branch. I also see on Google Earth they are re-configuring the S Norwalk station area. Do you know what is happening there?
No. The whole of the Shore Line/Corridor is being virtually reconstructed with upgraded track, cat, and plat(forms). So I am not sure at what stage S. Norwalk is at. Hope Dutch is watching and can comment.
That’s pretty much the way things were operating when my family and I rode the New Canaan branch in 2006. FWIW, my wife grew up there and her father rode the train to NYC for 41 years.
- Erik