I can see that I will soon need to upgrade transformers…which one do you recommend for good future growth potential?
thanks
TMT
Get one capable of running at least 2 trains at once. You can either go with a post war KW, which is very nice, and will set you back $75-$100 dollars. There are many choices, both post war and modern.
MRC Pure Power Dual (air whistle issues, but very affordable @ $200-ish)
Modern ZW (some have experienced issues with these)
MTH Z4000
Post war ZW
Post war KW
That’s my short list, and a place to start your considerations. I’m sure there are other fine choices.
Jim
Jim, what’s the issue with MRC air whistle?? I was ready to purchase the dual Pure Power. Glade you jumped in on this one. Thanks, Ken
The MRCs will blow my tuned up and well oiled post war air whistles, but not my modern one. I spoke to an MRC rep at the Big E show this past weekend and he confirmed that MRC knows about the issue and chooses not to address it because it’s really marketed for use with modern, electronic sound systems.
Jim
Wouldn’t the problem be the other way around? If the MRC rep said the transformer is marketed for use with modern systems, shouldn’t it will blow the whistles on the new engines, but not the old? Can you please clarify?
Regards,
John
John,
The MRC will trigger modern electical sound system whistles, NOT the modern air whistles.
Brent
To Clarify, John,
Modern electronic sound systems, and by that I mean pre-recorded sounds, require much less power to activate than air whistles. MRC purposely made their transformer’s sound activation activators less powerful to ensure that the electronic sound system boards, like Railsounds and Protosounds, don’t get fried. As a result, not enough power goes to an air whistle motor, unless you have the throttle pegged to full. Evidently, modern can motors need more power than the post war versions. My experience shows that to be true. My MRC will operate the old air whistles starting at 12 volts, but not the new can motor versions.
Call MRC and speak to a tech for a clearer explanation. I gave you the 5 cent version.
Jim
TMT,
Once again we’re tripping over our own imprecise terminology. The remote-controlled whistles are all “electrical,” but they are not necessarily “electronic.” I prefer the term electro-mechanical for traditional air whistles, and electronic for those systems that use “computer chips” to produce sounds without any mechanical component, other than the speaker itself.
- Post-war air whistles were generally electro-mechanical. The whistle button sent a direct-current (DC) component (known as the “DC offset”) down the track in an otherwise all AC system. This DC offset was “interpreted” by a clever device known as a “slugged relay” which then routed some of the transformer’s AC current to a motor which turned a fan in a specially shaped chamber, thereby producing a whistle sound.
The activation of the relay required a little extra “juice” and the fan motor required even more. The better post-war transformers added some additional power (a “boost”) to the track when the whistle was sounded in order to prevent the train from slowing down under the additional load of the relay and whistle motor. These systems were quite rugged compared to the modern electronic systems, but not as reliable, perhaps.
It is this “power boost” from post-war transformers that is part of the problem when used with modern fully electronic whistles. They don’t need it, they don’'t want it, and it could even damage them. I think that is what the MRC representative was saying. Evidently MRC has chosen to leave it out – at least in some cases – so that they experience great difficulty powering the postwar air-whistle motors.
- Modern, fully electronic whistles, having no moving parts (motors), require very little power. Triggering one of them is roughly the equivalent of turning on a pocket-sized transistor radio. The downside
Alas, the MRC transformers do not add boost when the whistle button is pressed, and therefor, the train slows down significantly at slower speeds, a little less noticible if you run them like I do - warp speed!
Jim
Does all of this explain why my CW80 can’t trigger my postwar air whistle but my 1044 does fine? So which transformer to upgrade to depends on what type of locos you run. If you run a combo of modern ad postwar, do you need to have both PW and modern transformers, or is there a modern transformer that will control everything - PW air whistle, modern air whistle, and electronic sounds?
Don
That’s interesting…I wonder if the modern air whistles require, or at the very least respond better to a chopped sine wave to operate. The MRCs are pure sine wave units.
We have an MRC Sound Station that has great whistle and diesel horn sounds among others. So if our air whistles refuse to sound, we just use the Sound Station, which sounds 100 times more realistic anyway.
Jim
TMT,
The Z4000 has only two track outputs, works better with MTH locomotives, has two accessory outputs.
The post war ZW & KW will need to have fast acting circuit breakers added to their output terminals before going to track.
The current production ZW will set you back about $450.00 to $600.00 for a new one with multiple power packs. Also have heard of problems with the current production ZW’s; 1)case-handles falling off, 2)internal shorting out across two outputs(sending full voltage to your trains).
I would go with the post war ZW or the Z4000 as they have lots of power. Don’t need 180 watts of power for one train as with the new ZW, about 90 watts is plenty for any train.
Lee F.
dmestan asked:
“…is there a modern transformer that will control everything - PW air whistle, modern air whistle, and electronic sounds?”
That’s certainly the $64 question.
Jumijo asked:
“That’s interesting…I wonder if the modern air whistles require, or at the very least respond better to a chopped sine wave to operate.”
If my speculation is correct, the modern whistles would need to “see” some sort of signal imposed on the unusual wave form. Pretty much by definition, if a system operates on the basis of modulating waveforms, a pure sine wave wouldn’t work. Yes? Whether the distortion of the waveform that was visible on the oscilloscope trace was the cause of the whistle blowing, or the result of it, is beyond my ken. (Not to mention my Barbie.) One might hope that the good folks who review these systems professionally would address these issues in their articles.
As is well known, the power supply/controllers of one manufacturer sometimes do not play well with trains of another manufacturer; so it’s not just different eras that cause problems, it’s also different manufacturer’s designs. There is much to ponder when one is planning what to do next as these can be expensive lessons to learn the hard way…
For the past several years, however, I have used different transformers for different train sets, generally using postwar transformers with postwar trains and modern transformers with modern trains. One way or another I can get everything to run and everything to blow, but it’s not always as convenient as one would like it.
Another option is to add another CW-80 transformer when needed. You may have to expand your transformer control panel but it won’t cost as much in the long run. The CW-80’s that I was able to use a few weeks ago worked great with my Williams trains, worked both the whistle and bell features. Also the CW-80 has more than enough power for most needs.
Lee F.
WOW…am I glad I asked this question!
I will watch as this discussion plays out…it would seem that it is “buyer beware”.
It also would seem that there is a distinct advantage of having trains from a specific time period and manufacturer…and as a person just starting out, knowing that will be important.
It is interesting that Lionel’s older transformers are considered “better” than newer offerings.
If we continue to buy starter kits to expand our rail empire, is there a growth path that uses multiple CW80 transformers that has been discussed or documented? Otherwise I can see one have multiple CW80s sitting around doing nothing.
TMT
Personally, I prefer the MTH Z1000 over the other newer tansformers on the market. It has no difficulty blowing PW air whistles and modern air whistles. The newer sound systems like Railsounds, PS1, and PS2 also work flawlessly. The circuit breaker, which is rated at 6 amps, also trips faster and more reliably than old PW circuit breakers. This is very important if you run the newer products that are loaded with electronics. They could be damaged as a result of a PW breaker not opening at the instant a derailment occurs, which could allow high current to flow through the electronics.
[quote user=“bfskinner”]
TMT,
Once again we’re tripping over our own imprecise terminology. The remote-controlled whistles are all “electrical,” but they are not necessarily “electronic.” I prefer the term electro-mechanical for traditional air whistles, and electronic for those systems that use “computer chips” to produce sounds without any mechanical component, other than the speaker itself.
- Post-war air whistles were generally electro-mechanical. The whistle button sent a direct-current (DC) component (known as the “DC offset”) down the track in an otherwise all AC system. This DC offset was “interpreted” by a clever device known as a “slugged relay” which then routed some of the transformer’s AC current to a motor which turned a fan in a specially shaped chamber, thereby producing a whistle sound.
The activation of the relay required a little extra “juice” and the fan motor required even more. The better post-war transformers added some additional power (a “boost”) to the track when the whistle was sounded in order to prevent the train from slowing down under the additional load of the relay and whistle motor. These systems were quite rugged compared to the modern electronic systems, but not as reliable, perhaps.
It is this “power boost” from post-war transformers that is part of the problem when used with modern fully electronic whistles. They don’t need it, they don’'t want it, and it could even damage them. I think that is what the MRC representative was saying. Evidently MRC has chosen to leave it out – at least in some cases – so that they experience great difficulty powering the postwar air-whistle motors.
- Modern, fully electronic whistles, having no moving parts (motors), require very little power. Triggering one of them is roughly the equivalent of turning on a pocket-sized transi
Thanks to all for the clarification. Now I understand what Jumijo was referring.
Regards,
John
I also like the Z1000 but have not compared it to a newer CW-80 for what it can do. Was at a friends house who has a CW-80 and brought a few of my engines to try, needles to say I like the newer and improved CW-80’s, maybe not 100% as much as a Z1000 but the price is a bit better when you buy one new down here in West Palm Beach FL.
Another comparison about the CW-80 and the Z1000, the CW-80 is all in one unit, the Z1000 has a power brick and a control box seperate from each other and the breaker is in the power brick.
Lee F.
We recently got a brand new CW-80 from Lionel after our old one died. It worked flawlessly. But I did notice something odd that I’ve never seen before with other CW-80s we’ve had. We were using the new CW-80 to power a tubular track floor layout. The CW-80 was attached to the tracks via a lighted lockon. With the throttle all the way to zero volts, I’d plug it into the wall outlet and;
A. the lighted lockon lit for just a split second each time
B. The post war locos got enough power from that split second to cycle their mechanical e-units each time.
Boogha boogha!
Jim