I could sure use some help from you electrical experts re my Z-4000 and post war ZW.
My layout has three loops plus a dozen sidings. Two loops are wired to the Z-4000; the remaining loop and sidings are connected to the ZW. Each of the loops has three insulated blocks (for eventual use in conventional train control). All three loops are connected to each other by switches, with each loop insulated from the others.
Since all my switches are not yet wired, I have not attempted to run an engine from one loop to another. What problems may I encounter when an engine crosses from the Z-4000 powered loops to the ZW one? The two transformers are not connected to each other.
I have seen ads in Classic Toy Trains magazine about gadgets designed to protect circuits, but I don’t understand exactly what I would need and how many.
You need to make sure the PW ZW is “phased” relative to the modern Z-4000. The older ZW has a non polarized plug so you can reverse the way it is plugged into an outlet. If you use the search function you will find numerous links on “phasing” transformers.
The PW ZW has a slow thermal style circuit breaker. If you intend to use modern electronic trains with the device, get some in-line fast acting breaker or fuse blocks. These are available from:
Running between blocks powered from different transformers and from different outputs of the same transformer can cause large fault currents which, particularly in traditional Lionel transformers like the ZW, do not pass through the circuit breaker. You can easily get a current greater than 30 amperes between any two of the outputs of your ZW if you connect them together, which will continue until the transformer burns out.
Connecting the outputs of transformers set to different voltages as the train passes over a block gap can also generate voltage spikes well over 100 volts, which are likely harmful to modern electronics-rich locomotives.
There are two popular responses to this situation. Some simply try to set their transformers so that they have the exact same voltage, phase, and waveform and run between transformers anyway.
The other approach, which I advocate endlessly, is the use of some sort of block system, using (electrical) switches associated with the blocks to assign the blocks’ center rails to one or another of the transformer outputs. Then one can run anywhere while staying with one transformer output.
Many advocate using supplemental fuses and fast circuit breakers to protect locomotive electronics. These help but do not prevent voltage spikes directly. Instead I urge you to install a transient voltage suppressor across each block’s feeders, to eliminate spikes absolutely. Additional circuit breakers are a good idea for the individual outputs of postwar multiple-output transformers like the ZW, but conventional auto-resetting automotive breakers will not cause nuisance tripping while fully protecting your transformer and wiring.
Notice that a block system has the incidental benefit of allowing you to subdivide your layout into more blocks than you have transformers, as many as you like, for greater flexibility. If you use switches with an off position, you can also shut a block off completely.
I will just add a little. I have a setup almost exactly like you describe with two inner loops fed from a postwar ZW and the outer loop fed from a Z-4000, which also feeds some other trackage which does not connect to the inner loops. I use 10 Amp fuses in the outputs of the ZW and rely on the internal circut breakers to protect the Z-4000. I have been using this setup for about 7 years with no problems other than one when I thought they were wired in phase and quickly found out they were not. After correcting this problem it has been trouble free. As Bob Nelson mentioned always try to have the voltage set to match the transformer outputs. The Z-4000 has built in voltmeters but I added them to the Post War ZW. Since I run 99.9 either TMCC or DCS I usualy have the voltages matched when operating so this isn’t a problem for me. I do not have the diodes installed for voltage spike protection, but on Bob’s advice I ordered them and received them yesterday. They will be installed shortly. Hope this helps a little.
Relax and enjoy your trains, this isn’t rocket science.
John, thanks for the info. I think I understand your solution and will most likely implement it. One other possibility I considered was to use the Z-4000 to power all my tracks (3 loops plus 12 sidings) and dedicate the PW ZW to accessories, except switches which are controlled via an AIU. Since I am using terminal blocks located right behind the transformers, it would be a simple matter to reroute the power sources.
Do you think the Z-4000 could power two trains operating simultaneously on each lever? I don’t think my brain can handle operating more than that at a time anyway.
I did forget to mention that the loops powered by the Z-4000 are in DCS mode via the TIU. A test using a PW steamer ran o.k. on them.
When I posted earlier I realized that I may have misunderstood your question. Were you asking if you can run 2 trains on each handle or one on each handle. Two trains on each handle would be sort of iffy in my opinion, unless you limited yourself to can motors and feight trains.
Bill, Assuming that you are not using the accessory terminal on the Z-4000, you should have no problem operating two trains on the Z-4000. At the present I have two trains on the tracks powered by the z-4000. One has an MTH Reading T-1 pulling 6 lighted K-line Passenger cars and the other train is a Weaver RS-1 pulling a freight train with a lighted caboose.
The only time I ever experienced a problem was when I had two early 90s Trainmasters, each with 2 pullmore motors pulling lighted passenger cars on one train, that was to much for the CB in the Z-4000. As long as you stick to can motor powered locos or limit the amount of pullmores you should be OK. Some of the lighted passenger cars consume a lot of power. The can motors are very light feeders and sometimes hardly show any current draw on the meters.
I still haven’t found time to install the diodes. [:)]
Running between blocks powered from different transformers and from different outputs of the same transformer can cause large fault currents which, particularly in traditional Lionel transformers like the ZW, do not pass through the circuit breaker. You can easily get a current greater than 30 amperes between any two of the outputs of your ZW if you connect them together, which will continue until the transformer burns out.
Connecting the outputs of transformers set to different voltages as the train passes over a block gap can also generate voltage spikes well over 100 volts, which are likely harmful to modern electronics-rich locomotives.
There are two popular responses to this situation. Some simply try to set their transformers so that they have the exact same voltage, phase, and waveform and run between transformers anyway.
The other approach, which I advocate endlessly, is the use of some sort of block system, using (electrical) switches associated with the blocks to assign the blocks’ center rails to one or another of the transformer outputs. Then one can run anywhere while staying with one transformer output.
Many advocate using supplemental fuses and fast circuit breakers to protect locomotive electronics. These help but do not prevent voltage spikes directly. Instead I urge you to install a transient voltage suppressor across each block’s feeders, to eliminate spikes absolutely. Additional circuit breakers are a good idea for the individual outputs of postwar multiple-output transformers like the ZW, but conventional auto-resetting automotive breakers will not cause nuisance tripping while fully protecting your transformer and wiring.
Notice that a block system has the incidental benefit of allowing you to subdivide your layout into more blocks than you have transformers, as many as you like, for greater flexibility. If you use switches with an off position, you can also shut
It does sound like you’ve pretty much got it. I’ll only try to clarify a few details.
You asked, “This is true because when a train switches from 1 loop to the other, the trains wheels complete a circuit between the 2 “insulated” loops, eliminating the effect of fiber pins?” Actually the outside rails are normally already connected together, which causes no problem. So it is the pickups that complete the circuit and connect the two transformer outputs together.
You asked, “No amount of fuses or circuit breakers will protect the engine/transformer from the effects of two outposts being linked together?” Fuses or circuit breakers on the individual outputs will protect the transformer and wiring. They can also help to reduce the incidence of voltage spikes simply by shutting things off quickly so that only a few spikes occur. But they can still occur and cause damage. So the surest preventive is transient voltage suppressors. If you use TVSs, then you don’t need fast fuses nor breakers (although slow breakers are still a very good idea) and you avoid nuisance blowing or tripping.
Using a resistor to drop the voltage to a block doesn’t create the hazard that using two transformer outputs does. While the pickups are across the block gap, both blocks are connected to the transformer directly. The resistor is short-circuited. But there is no harm in short-circuiting a passive component like a resistor, since it can’t generate any current by itself, the way a transformer winding can.
There is one caution, however. There have been reports on the forum of undersized wiring burning out in illuminated passenger cars. When a car has two pickups connected together inside the car, as it goes over the gap, an internal wire provides current from the directly-powered block to the block powered through the resistor. If the locomotive is
“…Thanks for the response and I learned something new about the passenger cars. I will check to make sure I have 1 pickup on my passenger cars to make sure the wires don’t melt. Should I worry about the wires in an engine with dual pickups? I know some of my k-line engines have dual can motors with dual pickups. Not sure if they are connected with the headlamp.”
Locomotives do have the same vulnerability in principle; but their wiring is heavier since it has to carry the full motor current, and, using resistors for voltage dropping, that is all that the pickup-to-pickup wiring would have to carry anyway, unlike the situation using multiple transformer outputs, where that current could be dozens of amperes.
As for your passenger cars, two pickups are not a problem if the wire connecting them is reasonably heavy.
“I was curious if you knew of a dial-setup where I could have something like 3 speeds and where I could buy a 3 position dial and 2 resistors. Lets say the dial is on “1”. Current will be sent through a resistor that eats the most voltage. Then if its turned to position “2”, power will be sent to the track via a less aggressive resistor so the train will move faster. Position 3 will have no resistor, just direct wire and the train will move fastest.”
You can certainly do that. In fact, a forum member built a very impressive controller like that a couple of years ago and posted pictures. It had many steps. You could use a single-pole-double-throw-center-off (SPDT-CO) switch for three speeds. Or you could use a rheostat–a variable resistor. Lionel once sold them for this purpose. They are not hard to find on E-bay and at train shows for just a few dollars. Their maximum resistance is about 5 ohms. Some model numbers are 81, 88, and 95.
"I have a spare 3 speed mechanical speed control from an electric remote control car I used to run. The ca
“You could ignore my previous PM. I did some more research and found out about Lionels Rheostats so that answers that. I also started thinking about my modern ZW and how it is a controller, and the transformer is actually outside (the bricks). Is it still dangerous to have 2 outposts powering different blocks on the same line using a modern ZW since the new ZW is a controller and not a transformer? It is a shame to have 4 outposts and only be able to use 1 handle to control power to 3 trains.”
I’m not up on the new ZW; but I have the impression that it can be used like an old ZW, with the “bricks” or whatever controlled individually so that they act like the old ZW’s separate outputs, or with the TMCC active, with the “bricks” acting like simple transformers, all at the same output voltage. (Anyone who knows about this, please jump in.) If these inferences are true, in the first case the situation is much like that with an old ZW. It is not clear that it is harmful to run between blocks, but it might be. I think Lionel has kept the details of the design secret. So I would hesitate to do anything differently than if I were using an old ZW. In the second case, it is reasonable to assume that the transformers are matched; and, if they are indeed acting as simple transformers, without phase control or chopping, it should be safe to run across block gaps, letting the TMCC receivers handle the speed control within the locomotives.
If this description holds any water, a reasonable way to wire a layout for both conventional and TMCC operation is to wire it for block control, with each block assignable to any of the “bricks”, just as they would be assigned to the individual outputs of an old ZW. This allows conventional operation without any risk of trouble crossing block gaps. Then, for TMCC, you can use the block controls to assign each block to one of four groups,
I didn’t know you were responding to my PM in this thread, and that is fine. At first I though you weren’t PMing me because I was annoying you. The only reason I sent PM is because I didn’t want to “highjack” Billbobboy1’s thread and overwhelm him. My posts were long explaining my dilemma, which now seems similar to that of Billbobboy1. It is good you shared it here (only cutting out the important stuff). Hopefully we didn’t loose you Bill. It took me a while to somewhat understand this topic, but it is fun.
Thanks again for your time Bob. I have new questions everytime I read your response and will create a thread on Lionel rheostats shortly.
Thanks for all the info. I’m still trying to put all that stuff in a way I can understand and implement it. I did order from Scot’s a TVS and a fuse whatchamacallit. When this stuff is delivered I may post to you for some specific install help, unless the directions are well laid out. As I’m sure you have noticed by now, I am very light on electrical and electronic knowledge. I understand positive and negative terminals/connections, but am lost in such things as rheostats, regulators, diodes, etc. I sort of understand the basic theory, but am not good at figuring out how to impement such things.
In my original post I brought up the issue of running an engine from a Z-4000 controlled block to one controlled by a PW ZW. I never thought, until now, about what will happen when running that engine in DCS command mode when it crosses to a block controlled by the conventional PW ZW. Will the engine make the transition from command to conventional mode without a meltdown?
