1-3 are substantially correct but number 3 is pretty dubious unless you have a very large loop of track. By the time you get the command unit up and running the PW will probably have rear ended it.
The Command loco’s top speed is determined by the maximum track voltage, aka it can only go as fast as it can at that track voltage. There is a page devoted to this type of control in the older TMCC master manual. It is called transitional control and it is the most challenging form of control. Unless you know the CAB-1 (or Legacy controller) buttons cold and have excellent eye/hand coordination (or a lot of track/room) I would avoid it like the plague.
OK, here is another basic question. After looking at the MTH version, they say that you need the Lionel Command base to communicate with Lionel TMCC engines. It got me thinking:
Is the Command base needed if all I want to do is control PW engines?
Would the CAB-1 and a Powermaster do the job? (Plus my old 1950s ZW transformer)
If you already own DCS, you can control non command loco’s by using the variable outputs of the TIU. The variable outputs of the TIU are not the stongest point of the DCS system but they may be adequate for your needs.
Yes, you can control PW locomotives with a CAB-1 and PowerMasters. I would be careful about using the older/original PowerMasters for more modern conventional loco’s (aka one’s with electronic reverse units and electronic whistle/bells). The waveform output from the older PowerMasters can cause eratic behavior becaus of the chopped sine wave used for power output.
It looks like you are saying : Yes, I can control speed, whistle, bell of an old engine without buying the TMCC command base 6-12811. It is available seperately, or combined with CAB-1, where they call it Trainmaster Command set. (I am looking at a 2006 catalog)
I have looked at the installation manuals for all components involved, and I see no cable connection between the Command base and the Powermaster(s). That tells me it must listen to the radio frequency signals from the CAB-1 or the Command base.
When you say “Chopped Sine wave” I guess you are talking about the delayed turnon of the sinewave at each zero crossover, as in a SCR ot TRIAC controlled lamp dimmer. Or is it more chopped up than that?
One reason for my confusion: On page 170 of the 2006 catalog volume 2: (Liberally edited)
OPERATING CONVENTIONAL LOCOMOTIVES ONLY …
WHAT YOU NEED
Choose one … 18 volt transformer with a power supply cable (6-128930).
Choose one Powermaster, TPC 300…
TMCC Command Base (for use with the TPCs) (6-12911)
CAB-1 Remote controller (6-12868)
Turn the page back to 169. In the description for the TMCC Powermaster:
Control non-TMCC Locomotives from the CAB-1 Remote Controller.
The Page 170 “quote” says you do need the Command base, Page 169 (And the Owner’s manual) do not mention the need for the command base. The Diagram posted earlier in this thread (A copy of pages in a 1995 or 1996 catalog show 2 seperate rf paths, one directly to the powermaster the other to the command base.
My best guess is that the statement on P170 is wrong. Right?
Looking back to the 2003 Catalog, volume 1, page 118, the line about needing the Command base is omitted. I wonder why it was added?
PowerMasters pre-date the Command Base. They have a receiver internal of them that will talk to a CAB-1 directly. If you were to choose to use a modern ZW or TPC’s, you will need the Command Base to “talk” to these devices.
The older PowerMasters and the original Model Rectifier Toy train transformers from the early 90’s tried to use modified waveforms to coax additional performance out of the older PW trains. These modified waveforms tended to drive electronic E-Units and sound devices nuts as the modified wave forms often looked like DC spikes or would trip the E-unit. If you really stick to PW trains, the PowerMasters are fine. If you want to mix in more modern equipment you may want to look at other alternative means to control them.
It looks like I will be getting a CAB-1 and a couple of Powermasters. Thanks all for the knowledge.
I ran a little test this afternoon to see if a chopped sine wave would adversly affect my newest engine, a 2006 E6 AA from MTH. I powered the old ZW with a lamp dimmer, and ran the E6. Blew the horn, and it stopped when it should. Looks like it is compatible with the chopping. That engine has "Loco sounds, not Proto Sounds, so it it pretty conventional.
I have a further question about our present train transformers. I see how the CW-80 triggers the whistle/bell, and I understand how the older PW transformers did this (like my little 1033’s). How about the other high tech transformers that are out now (like the z-4000 and ZW)… That is, what methods do the other newer transformers use to trigger the whistle/bell? What are the electronics? Same as the PW (Diode/Resistor wire), CW-80 (varying the chopped sine wave), or another method completely?
Just to clarify the conflicting statements regarding the need for a “Command Base” (6-12911 ) when all you want to do is control conventional PW engines: I bought the CAB-1 and two Powermasters (6-24130). With them I can control engines on the 2 sections of my layout.
This is in contrast to the statement in the 2006 -2 Lionel Catalog, where they say you need the command base. The 2007-2 catalog says you need the Legacy Command set, which includes a command base. They do not mention that you could use CAB-1 without the command base.
I do not think it is ethical to try to sell us things we don’t need and would get no use out of.
Regarding BobbyDing’s question, I put a scope on the output of a Powermaster. The Bell and Whistle control is done just a little bit different from the older ZW or 1031 Postwar transformers. The speed control using a Powermaster happens by delaying the time when each 1/2 sine wave is triggered “on” by the internal triac. The same delay is used on the positive and negative parts. When you hit the “Bell” button for example, it increases the delay to turnon of one half only, which adds a DC component to the signal. I think it is positive for the whistle, negative for the bell.
It will be interesting to see how long the CAB-1’s and PowerMasters are continued to be carried in the catalogs. Since these were designed to run PW stuff and Lionel’s own locomotives and doesn’t always play well with other parties conventional equipment, I can understand why they would not be pushing these two products very hard, particulalry the PowerMasters. The TPC’s and modern ZW do a much better job of controlling conventional loco’s and do so without causing problems with other companies trains. Everything but the PowerMasters requires the use of a Command Base, either the original one or Legacy.
We use either 180 bricks or Z-4000 for power and have the option of TMCC or DCS . For the conventional operators we had generally used the MTH handhelds with the Z-4000’s but since MTH has seen fit to dis-continue the handhelds we have started to switch over to the TPC’s. So far it has been fairly successful, even with some foot dragging diehards, including PS-1 & 2 and non command by various makers. The only caviat is that I haven’t tried it on any pre-war stuff, yet.
Are you saying that the TPC-300 or 400 actually do need the Command Base?
I could not see the need for that much power. I measured 3.4 amps going to an MTH E8 diesel pulling 4 passenger cars with 2 lights in each. At 18 volts, that is 61.2 watts. I am running both Powermasters, set at 135 Watts from a single tap on the ZW, which frees up one tap for future use. Setting them at 180 watts just sets the internal circuit breaker higher. Sort of like putting pennies in the fuse box.
These are connected via the serial port on the Command Base, either original or Legacy. The ONLY things a CAB-1 can talk to directly are PowerMasters and the original PowerMaster. Everything else is handled either echoed commands from the serial port or via the track RF signal.
I run my TPC’s off of single 180 watt bricks. While they canbe tied together, I see no need for that and am concerned about punching 15-20 amps into a single section of track. I buy/like/recommend the TPC’s becuase of their other features and consider the added power capacity to be “gravy”