so you’re ********* that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
I read it more as he was saying the detail of a $100 locomotive didn’t compare to the detail of another manufacturer’s $100 locomotive.
so you’re misunderstanding my post? I’m not sure why you’re being so hostile. I just wanted to. voice my opinion and see if any body else felt the same.
Did I ever once say that I didn’t know why a mainline didn’t have the same detail as a proto? No I didn’t. I’m saying if you looked at a $100 Walthers, and a $100 athearn or Atlas, the latter would have better detail. No need to get upset. Thrn I said I liked their drives and wish I could stick a genesis shell on them? I really think you need to slow down and read a post better before you get upset.
Maybe that addresses your original post?
Is that perceived difference “under the hood” able to justify the price to apparent detail ratio you refer to?
I don’t yet have a Walthers Proto locomotive to compare to my Genesis nor a Mainline to compare the Athearn RTR.
I am VERY impressed with two Athearn Roundhouse AC 70 we just acquired, supposedly the lowest detail and quality of their three lines, and also with their RTR which I have GP 35 ready for DCC. The Genesis GP 38-2 DCC with sound I just bought is yet another cut above the two lower lines but the value Athearn delivers in those two lower lines is truly impressive.
For me the drives in the Athearn products compare very favourably with the original Lifelike models I have. Walthers Proto is supposed to be no better than those older Lifelike products.
Unless Walthers Proto has yet better drivetrains than their Lifelike predecessors and charge more than Athearn for the Genesis models, and so on through the three competing product lines then it’s difficult to see how Walthers can keep charging more than its competition.
Clarification: No better than the same Proto 2000 line under Life-Like. Like Walthers, Life-Like also had lower-quality and less detailed lines. However, they didn’t come up to the same standards as the Proto 2000 line - both mechanically and in detail.
Tom
Walthers only produces what was Proto 2000 as far as I know.
Proto 1000 were pretty good and certainly not in the same class as Mainline or Athearn RTR
And there’s your answer right there. Walthers seems interested in giving you a good loco under the hood at this price point. If the consumer wants to upgrade the detail later, that’s always an option.
However, if you go cheap on the chassis and put the money into detailing, then you may be buying something that will cost a lot more to upgrade if dissatisfied. Nothing much you can do except put another chassis under it or do a rebuild so costly you might as well start over by buying new - after some research to ensure you’re getting what you want.
As with cars and truck (in 1:1), I’d rather have something reliable and performance oriented than lush with luxury and bells and whistles. But if I did want those bells and whistles, I’d be prepared to pay to combine those with performance.
Funny thing about the SD60, it used to be a Proto 2000 model with as much detail as they could fit on it. All the mounting holes are still there.
The SD60M was $140.00 MSRP back in 2002 when it was released. Inflation brings that up to $201 in today’s value. You can get the grab iron kit for $10, and the lift rings and pilot details will likely cost under $50. When you put it into perspective, the value is basically the same as always. The problem is a lot of us are stuck thinking in 2000 dollars instead of 2020 dollars, so things seem more expensive than we think they should be, but they really aren’t.
Hence my comment about the 1956 American Flyer GP7.
Ringo, I understand what your saying and what we are talking about are mid-level locomotives and with Walthers Mainline and Atlas Trainman as well as the ScaleTrains Operator line, the value is with “what’s under the hood”. You get the best mechanisms all three have to offer, the same used in their Proto, Master and Rivitcounter lines but you get shells that you must detail to your level of taste. OTOH with Athearn RTR you get a super detailed shell minus the cab interior and treaded walkway ( on most, I think the SD60 and SD45T-2 have the tread ) but, you get the standard RTR motor that you can upgrade with the Genesis motor upgrade kit for about the same cost or a little less than the detail kits for the others.
Some don’t mind the detailing or even running them without detailing, they are more happy with the way they run. To others it’s about the way they look and the time and expense of not having to detail them and they are happy with the RTR motor or will upgrade it later. That’s the compromise you have to make at that price level or upgrade to the Proto, Master Line, Rivitcounter or Genesis lines to get it all.
For me I would rather have the detail done for me unless I couldn’t get what I wanted because it was only available in the Mainline or Trainman lines.
Ralph
I’m 21 and got back into the hobby in 2019 so all I think is 2020 money. I guess when I think about it, the athearn models I picked for cheap up were a few years old at the time. I just felt like the mechanisms were so good that I expected more from the detail. My walthers units are my smoothest running locomotives along with my p2k SD7. That think creeps so slow youd barley notice it was moving.
I’m going to throw an idea out there.
Does the word “quality” really apply to the level of detail a model has?
OR, does it apply more to how well the manufacturer designed and assembled the model at whatever “detail level” they felt their price point would support?
If I buy a base model FORD FLEX and a fully loaded FORD FLEX LIMITED w/eccoboost, both vehicles are the same “quality”. They are built on the same line, by the same workers, with largely the same parts. One costs $37,000, the other costs nearly $50,000.
The $50,000 one comes with lots of extra “features”, more HP, all wheel drive, it parks itself, it has in dash navigation, and a list of other bells and whistles not on the lesser priced model.
The word you are really looking for here is “value”. You feel the Walthers loco was not a good value compared to the other product.
But here is the thing, detail levels on these models can be subjective. So unless we are comparing two models of the same loco, made by different companies, it is not really a fair comparison. I do understand in the one case you were comparing the same model by Wathers vs Athearn.
And, don’t expect every loco, or piece of rolling stock in a given series from a manufacturer to have what you consider the same level of detail.
Judge each brand, and each piece they make, on its own merits. And decide if that item is a good “value” for you.
Sheldon
Tell that to JD Power and Consumer Reports, where sister vehicles built ont he same assmebly line and just get different badges put on them get vastly different ratings.
But really, unless you get one made Friday afternoon before a long weekend, if it’s built ont he same line, using the same parts, by the same people - it has the same quality. Amount of detail has no bearing on it.
Quality, for a model - is more in the motor and drive. Just because all the lift rings aren’t indicidually installed doesn’t really make it lesser quality, it’s just lesser detailed. All the detail, even the stuff you can’t see, on Rapido locos wouldn’t mean a thing if they slapped a $10 drive under it. I can add a dress up kit with details to my fairly plain Stewart F units, that’s not even expensive. But if I had to repalce the drive - that gets expensive. Luckily Stewart drives are quite good, Kato or Buhler motored ones.
–Randy
Yup, those robots get sleepy by Friday.
Not to go too far afield here, but Consumer Reports? Really? That organization has so much built in bias it is unbelieveable. It does not matter how good a car is at what the manufacturer intended it to be, or how good it is for some people’s needs, if it is not what Consumer Reports thinks a car should be, it gets a bad rating.
Sheldon
I’d prefer to have the great smooth and quiet power train over the detailed shell.
Maybe some companies are focusing on drive train and others focus more on the shell details.
You and me both, Douglas. You can have the most prototype-looking locomotive ever produced. However, if it doesn’t run well…then I have no use for it on my layout. A poor running locomotive only leads to a frustrating experience.
Tom
More reason for why Walthers gives you a top quality mechanism first…
Back in the day when you often built your own, the admonition was to get the loco running right before you started adding detail so there is no lengthy pawing over of the details, which were to be added after proper operation was achieved. Given Walthers long history and its ethos, I doesn’t surprise me they still emphasize this approach to value and quality.
[Y] +1
Me too.
-Kevin
OK, I’ve owned the older Proto 2000 SD60M, as BNSF #9290, and I’ve seen and test run the newer Walthers version and they are NOT the same, or even close. The newer Walthers engines run significantly better than the earlier versions of the “same” model, and they all are heavy and pull like crazy, both new and old. If you search online, the SD60M at one point was the pulling champion of HO diesel models and is still up near the top…
Detail on the new ones was a little on the light side for me, which is partly why I didn’t buy the newest version, and I’ve since switched to all steam.
However, I have owned several recent Walthers GP-30’s AND F-7’s and I can tell you they are significantly better (ran significantly better) than earlier efforts (I did own several earlier LL Proto GP-30’s)! No, Walthers does NOT go for Genesis level detail. Instead, they actually find middle of the road versions they can do that are actually pretty “correct” without adding all the details that Athearn puts on a Genesis level model.
I just recently sold a (practically brand new) Genesis GP-7 on Ebay. It was a version from a few years back, and it ran poorly…very noisy motor and/or gears. Buyer still hasn’t given me feedback, but it was indeed mint.
Some people don’t like the lack of spare parts from Walthers, and I can’t help you there.
My 2c.
John