Was Prussia the first country to use railways for military usage?

[FJ_and_G]

Thanks eastside, these are exciting finds. I was aware of rut roads but not this specific case and the West Point is a new one to me.

[Anonymous]

For those interested in how geology influenced the Battle of Gettysburg, see:

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/topogeo/education/es5/es5.pdf

Dave

[J_Edgar]

prior to 1840ish most things you mention…machinery.cannon et al. would be built near the port anyway…ports and navies were around a coupla years before the RR’s im thinkin…as industry grew (with the help of and because of RR growth) and factories moved farther inland well…there ya go [2c]

Hmm, my thinking was just the opposite. AFAIK most British foundries were inland, near supplies of timber and coal, or far from the naval ports, which were mostly on the South and East of England. Agricultural produce, of course, also had to be shipped from inland. So as railroads became available, it would seem that the British navy would have taken advantage.

well i dunno…i do know the first rolled iron rails were rolled at the Bedlington Iron Works Northumberland England in 1820 which had a port or two…with the fact that steam traction on flanged wheels as we know it started in England as early as 1812 to work collierys…maybe they needed more coal for their war effort?.. i would find it hard to believe someone somewhere didnt see the significance of the early steam carriges…i have found reference to"wagons" of Dutch State Railways being stenciled “men 40, horses 8” as early as 1846

[MStLfan]

…i have found reference to"wagons" of Dutch State Railways being stenciled “men 40, horses 8” as early as 1846

Are you certain? As far as I know the State Railways (actually a private company leasing state owned track, MESS, Maatschappij tot Exploitatie van Staatsspoorwegen, commonly shortened to SS) did not exist at that point in time. We had the Holland Iron Railway (HIJSM, Hollandse IJzeren Spoorwegmaatschappij, the first) and, I think, the Dutch Rhenish Railway (NRS, Nederlandse Rijnspoorwegmaatschappij) at that time.

If you come across that reference please inform me.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

The “men 40, horses 8” stencil rings a bell though. I think it was a common “load” for the 4-wheel boxcars of the time and long after

[FJ_and_G]

I don’t know about Holland, but Belgium of all places, developed a great rail system that was the envy of the Prussians and later Germany. Unfortunately for Belgium, the Germans made good use of Belgian railways. This tidbit I got from “The Rise of Rail-Power in War and Conquest” by Edwin A. Pratt, 1916.

[TimChgo9]

The “hommes 40, Chevaux 8” was stenciled on French railway cars. I don’t know if that was European standard or not, or if it was a specific to the French railway wagons.

I do know that as early as the 1840’s or so, (it was in 1852 that Krupp delivered his first cast steel cannon to the Prussian Army’s Saarn Arsenal) Krupp was trying to get his “seamless railroad tire” patented in Prussia. But, thanks to one August von der Heydte, his patent was not recognized in Prussia, and other European railways were buying more of his tires in a month the the Preussen Staats Eisenbahn bought in an entire year.

[eastside]

prior to 1840ish most things you mention…machinery.cannon et al. would be built near the port anyway…ports and navies were around a coupla years before the RR’s im thinkin…as industry grew (with the help of and because of RR growth) and factories moved farther inland well…there ya go [2c]

Hmm, my thinking was just the opposite. AFAIK most British foundries were inland, near supplies of timber and coal, or far from the naval ports, which were mostly on the South and East of England. Agricultural produce, of course, also had to be shipped from inland. So as railroads became available, it would seem that the British navy would have taken advantage.

well i dunno…i do know the first rolled iron rails were rolled at the Bedlington Iron Works Northumberland England in 1820 which had a port or two…with the fact that steam traction on flanged wheels as we know it started in England as early as 1812 to work collierys…maybe they needed more coal for their war effort?.. i would find it hard to believe someone somewhere didnt see the significance of the early steam carriges…i have found reference to"wagons" of Dutch State Railways being stenciled “men 40, horses 8” as early as 1846

I did some more research. Early nineteenth century Royal Navy cannon were manufactured at the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich (where the famous Arsenal Football Club was founded) near the London docks. Still, the movement of armaments would have been infrequent relative to the daily needs to provision its fleet. It would be much harder to say with conviction that the Royal Navy didn’t make even indirect use of railroads early in the nineteenth century as they greatly expanded markets for manufactured goods, agricultural produce, and seafood.

[J_Edgar]

…i have found reference to"wagons" of Dutch State Railways being stenciled “men 40, horses 8” as early as 1846

Are you certain? As far as I know the State Railways (actually a private company leasing state owned track, MESS, Maatschappij tot Exploitatie van Staatsspoorwegen, commonly shortened to SS) did not exist at that point in time. We had the Holland Iron Railway (HIJSM, Hollandse IJzeren Spoorwegmaatschappij, the first) and, I think, the Dutch Rhenish Railway (NRS, Nederlandse Rijnspoorwegmaatschappij) at that time.

If you come across that reference please inform me.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

The “men 40, horses 8” stencil rings a bell though. I think it was a common “load” for the 4-wheel boxcars of the time and long after

reference is in “The Pictorial History of Railways” by Hamilton Lewis published 1968 Middlesex England…this tome is a “readers digest” of rail history leaning heavily on England but seems to give a well researched look at early railroading world wide…and i was mistaken upon rechecking…the date would be 1896 on a picture showing men and horses loading a line a wagons at a small country station

[J_Edgar]

prior to 1840ish most things you mention…machinery.cannon et al. would be built near the port anyway…ports and navies were around a coupla years before the RR’s im thinkin…as industry grew (with the help of and because of RR growth) and factories moved farther inland well…there ya go [2c]

Hmm, my thinking was just the opposite. AFAIK most British foundries were inland, near supplies of timber and coal, or far from the naval ports, which were mostly on the South and East of England. Agricultural produce, of course, also had to be shipped from inland. So as railroads became available, it would seem that the British navy would have taken advantage.

well i dunno…i do know the first rolled iron rails were rolled at the Bedlington Iron Works Northumberland England in 1820 which had a port or two…with the fact that steam traction on flanged wheels as we know it started in England as early as 1812 to work collierys…maybe they needed more coal for their war effort?.. i would find it hard to believe someone somewhere didnt see the significance of the early steam carriges…i have found reference to"wagons" of Dutch State Railways being stenciled “men 40, horses 8” as early as 1846

I did some more research. Early nineteenth century Royal Navy cannon were manufactured at the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich (where the famous Arsenal Football Club was founded) near the London docks. Still, the movement of armaments would have been infrequent relative to the daily needs to provision its fleet. It would be much harder to say with conviction that the Royal Navy didn’t make even indirect use of railroads early in the nineteenth century as they greatly expanded markets for manufactured goods, agricultural produce, and seafood.

the

[FJ_and_G]

Thought some of you’d like to see some additional research I’ve come up with:

By the 1840s, thousands of miles of track had been laid in Europe and America. The United States’ war with Mexico (1846-’48) involved steamships more than steam locomotives. The Quartermaster’s Department used steamboats to transport troops and supplies southward on the Missouri and Mississippi rivers. Sailing ships and steam vessels brought supplies down the Atlantic seaboard to Texas as well. Also, light-draft steamboats were run up the Rio Grande as far as Camargo. For these reasons, the Mexican War has been called “the first steamboat war.”

Gen. Jesup urged construction of a military railroad for the supply of Gen. Taylor’s Army from the Gulf coast, 9 miles inland to Point Isabel, Texas. Although the Topographical Engineers did not disapproving his recommendation, they had no funds for the project.

Railways likely played a small part in the Mexican War, insofar as transporting troops mobilized for war. Also, some of the participants in the conflict, most notably the engineers, would play a larger role in railways during the Civil War.

As an aside, acquisition of land from Mexico, along with territory purchased under terms of the Gadsden Treaty with Mexico in 1853 would enable the buildings of transcontinental railways and help to subdue the various Indian tribes, thereby fulfilling the expansionist dream of Manifest Destiny.

The Europeans became the first to use their railways in warfare when Prussian troops were transported by rail to Denmark’s Schleswig-Holstein provinces, during the First Schleswig War (1848-’50) between Prussia and Denmark, after Danish ships effectively blockaded north German coastal ports.

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The first military railway photo ever taken was by Mr. Fenton, of the rail yard at Balaclava, near Sevastapol, on Apr 2, 1855. A bit hard to see, unfortunately. Thi

[J_Edgar]

Thought some of you’d like to see some additional research I’ve come up with:

great work [tup]