Was talked out of a Zepher Tonight at LHS? It is to small?

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
1

I have been so close for some time to up grading my DCC system. My current bench has around 200 feet of rails. Command station is a mer E-Z with a MRC 8 amp booster. I seem to have plenty of power.

I asked Ken (the owner) about the Digitrax computer interfaces but he did not have one. Then I started asking questions about the Zepher (it all so came up I will be building a bigger layout in the new house) and the Empire Builder. Guy named Don (not sure if he is a silent partner or just helps out like I did) asked me how big the new layout will be. If I get the house I want the bench will be around 19 X 19 and I hope to have 5 main lines all around 65 foot. With spurs and branch lines there could be around 400 feet of track.

At that point he told me I did not want a Zepher or a Empire Builder, I need to start with a 20 amp power supply and started to go on. My eyes started to glazes over and told Ken I call you Friday for a list of what I will need and the part number for the interfaces.

Now, am I missing something here? Is not the strong point of Digitrax the fact you can add to it?

What is the 20 amp power supply he told me I need to start with, I don’t think it is a booster.

He all so said I did not want the Zepher or Empire because I want to add throttles? Something about using the throttles as the command station with the 20 amp thing?

Reason for the Zepher, use it as the desk control, add walk around throttles. Use it 2.5 amp power supply say for 2 of the main lines and 8 amp booster for the other 3 lines.

Empire builder, has the better throttle and 5 amp booster. It with the 8 amp booster should power 5 mains with say 20 engines. That is figuring 5 lines with 4 engine constants.

What am I miss

2

Um…the store owners have no idea what they are selling.

The Zephyr is completely expandable, and if you out grow it, then you can still use it as a booster.

You can plug up to 9 throttles into it and it supports 10 locos at one time.

20 amps is only useful if you are going to split that power over 4 power boosters (5 amps each)…there is NO way in God’s green earth that you need 20 amps to run an HO layout. No way…

David B

3

the 20 amp power supply, just powers up your boosters, it can handle input power for up to four boosters, might be nice to have down the road, but overkill for a single

command station/ booster unit.

the Zephyr is 2.5 amps right out of the box, enough for about ten active sound locos with room to spare, can handle ten seperate active address, and ten throttles.

you can add wireless, computer interface, extra boosters, jump throttles, and can run as a booster/autoreverse/throttle only if a SEB or SC is operated as the command station.

base unit has 8 functions, page mode programming, and is expandable.

the functions expand to 12 when using a external throttle (UT4, DT400, Decoder Pro throttle via computer interface.

The SEB bumps you up to 5 or 8 amps onboard, the DT400 throttle, 22 active address, and 22 throttles,

what you lose is the programming track feature, but I you have the PR3 programmer, it takes care of that, and again wireless addon is plug and play and can be ordered as a option right out of the box,

If you have the 8 amp SEB or SC, that’s where the 20 amp power supply comes into play, the smaller 3 and 5 amp power supplies just won’t cut it.

I like to think of the SEB as an upgrade add-on for the Zephyr, you get the extra brains, horsepower and a throttle, wireless if you want it, at a lower price than the SC, and your Zephyr is still in the loop.

The SC is everything all rolled into one, full programming, 120 locos, 120 throttles, 5 or 8 amp versions, radio as an option. The SC is ready made for club type operations.

Additional boosters are also available, and could be added in as needed.

I personally prefer two 5 amp boosters over one 8 amp, or three 5 amps over two 8 amp, or eve

4

I would agree. Twenty amps will start and run a 7000 BTU air conditioner. What would you run with so much power? Twenty amps will run three full lighted passenger car consists plus another 12-15 sound equipped engines. Are you likely to have that much power demand at any one moment in time?

These guys must be thinking in terms of DC, maybe even AC and O gauge. For HO, especially DCC, you need top quality voltage getting to all the powered rail segments or districts. That means a couple or three boosters, maybe, a 12 gauge bus, and lots of soldered 20 gauge feeders (short ones) and soldered rail joiners. If the voltage drops are minimal, that is what you want. High amps is just a waste, and it will require lots of expensive breakers to keep the amps from coursing through the rails when there is a short.

I won’t go into more detail than that because this isn’t my strength, but I think three or four regular advisors here will agree that a few well-placed boosters augmenting your Zephyr will do nicely. Even a Super Chief with 8 amps is going to be too much if it can’t be broken down over such a lengthy track system.

5

Ken, lets talk when you get a chance. Sorry I missed you on Wednesday, was putting boys to bed and did not hear the phone. Bottom line is that a Zephyr will easily power what you are running now. You could continue to run your MRC booster as well if you wish? In the future additional DB150 boosters can be added if and when needed. The number of amps you will need has much more to do with how many trains you want to run at once than the size of the layout. I agree with the others, 20 Amps is way over kill. The k-10 layout is what, 4000 sq feet? At any given time they have 15 to 20 double headed trains running at once, so 30-40 locomotives running at once. If I recall correctly it is divided up amongst 6 DCS100/DB150’s? So that layout is run under the control of a single DCS 100 with a total possible output of 30 amps of boosted power. This is actually way more of a system than is actually needed to accomplish this.

Here is what you do.

  1. Either stick with what you currently have, or get a Zephyr, UT4 and UP5 face place or two.

  2. Do some rewiring of the layout to break it up into protected power districts.

  3. As future plans dictate add more power to the system. Based on today’s product range I would say adding a Super Chief later and making the Zephyr a yard throttle/yard booster and using the expanded command station capability of the chief. In all likelihood this will be plenty for the new planned layout. If not a DB150 could also be added.

But, who knows what the Digitrax range will have in it in a couple of years, things may change? First step is to see if the Zephyr does anything for you right now in the current location. For that we can use my system when I next come over.

6

Unless you intend to run 8 or 9 fully lighted long passenger trains with sound on each the Zephyr and your 8 amp booster should be enough. 20 amps! Geezzz! You can weld with that much power! One of my friends has a large HO layout with 4 or 5 mainlines, several yards and I don’t know how many spurs that goes through three rooms. It makes my 8 x 10 look like a 1 cent postage stamp! He runs the whole thing with a Zephyr with a second Zephyr (throttle on it doesn’t work) acting as a booster. That’s a total of 5 amps running up to 10 trains at once with 2 to 3 locos on the heavy trains (35+ cars). He was the one who sold me on the Zephyr. Sounds like somebody is trying to get a paycheck at your expense.

7

I’ve got a Lenz system myself, so I’ve just got academic interest here.

Suppose you want a Digitrax system, but one thing that’s important is a walk-around throttle. The Zephyr is fixed-base, right? And you would need to buy an add-on throttle at extra cost?

How does that configuration compare to say, the Empire Builder? If you went straight to the EB, what would the cost difference be? What other advantages would the EB give you? I’m thinking about things like separate programming track, more power and a larger locomotive stack, maybe?

My Lenz system certainly cost more initially than a Zephyr, but for the money I got a walk-around throttle, 5 amps and a 32-loco stack, plus a separate programming track output. The control bus for plugging in additional throttles uses commercially-available DIN jacks, so I was able to string throttle ports all the way around my layout at a cost of less than a dollar each.

As for that 20-amp supply? Maybe if you’re running G-gauge on an acre of garden railroad, but most large clubs don’t even need that much. That 8-amp booster you’ve already got should be more than you’ll ever need.

8

Ken, in a nutshell they are - nuts.

If you had a hanger size layout, but only ran 2 trains at a time, a Zephyr would power it. The physical size of a layout has little to do with how many amps you need powering it. If you had some sort of crazy 4x8 where you coudl ahev 20 trains runnign at once - a Zephyr would not be enough. You do not need the Digitrax 20 amp power supply and the four 5 amp booster it would power for your layout, not yet anyway. I hope to have a layout someday that needs all that, as probably do you, but for now, the Zephyr is fine. You can add the extra stuff when and if you need it.

–Randy

9

Oh, and if you like the DT400 throttle, you can buy one of those and plug it in to the Zephyr. Park the Zephyr near the yard and have the walkaround for other locations.

Parts you need to have the computer interface are the PR3 and PS14 power supply. And a piece of track. And a piece of wire to connect the PR3 to the piece of track.

–Randy

10

Thanks guys, so I am right in thinking a Zepher or SEB would be a good starting point.

As Don took over the conversation Ken the owner did get a sick look on his faces. Like I said before, I don’t think Don is a partner of the shop, just some free help like I was when I had the time. From is point of view, I see what he was thinking. 19 X 19 bench, over 400 feet of track so this guy wants the best of the best! He all so knows I have some PCM engines, makes him think I have deep pockets.

SEB is $279.99, Zepher is $159.99 plus $15.00 for face plate and $59.99 for a cheap hand held for $234.98. So for $45.00 I get 2.5 more amps and a better throttle. I forgot, I would need a extra face plate with the SEB, other wises I still be stuck behind the desk, so make that $60.00 more for the SEB.

Simon, looking forward to seeing you and the boys again. Ken knows you are helping me and said I am in good hands.

Thanks again for all the help.

Not as confused Ken, posting again.

11

With the SEB, comes with a UP5 faceplate, and there are two jacks on the front of the booster,you will use one to connect the UP5, and you can connect the throttle into the other one.

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_seb_adv_set.php

you will, also have to get a 5 amp power supply the PS515 (not Included) which will add another $40/50,

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_ps_ps515.php

a PR3 and seperate power supply $80 for Page mode (seperate program track) programming,

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_compint_pr3.php

and a cable to connect the UP5 panel, 10 bucks or so.

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_up5.php

the Zephyr price included the power supply, and also has the programming track capibilities.

[url]http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set

12

I have to agree with the others. I would not put much faith in anything these guys told you. There is no way I would ever use a 20 Amp power supply. If you ever really need that much power it would be much better to get it with 4 x 5 amp power supplies each with their own booster unit. The booster units could easily be hooked (added to) to the Digitrax Zephyr unit. And, by the way, they could be added over time as need dictated.

And you are right. Power supplies are just that. They supply power. Boosters are what convert that power into a DCC signal for the track to use. A Zephyr with its 2.5 Amp power supply combined with your existing 8-amp supply and a booster (DB200, controlled by the Zephyr) would work as you described. However personally I would add some sort of power isolator (like the Digitrax PM42, or CVP zoneshare) to divide that 8 amps up into smaller pieces. Like one zone per mainline loop or something.

Also don’t forget the Zephyr has two “jumper” throttles. This is where you can use any standard DC controller as a DCC throttle.

The back of my brain is reminding me there was some limitation with the Empire Builder… but I cannot bring it to the front of my thoughts just now. …

The computer interface on the Digitrax units (MS100) just plugs into the loco-net bus. So it works the same on all the Digitrax units.

13

If you’re getting the Super Empire Builder remember to keep a notepad around to record your CV settings as the SEB has no readback capability. One of the selling points of the Zephyr for me was the readback. I can place a loco on the program track and in just a couple of minutes read every CV I need to see. With the SEB you’re blind.

14

Ken, there are only two good things about the SEB: first is that is has 5 amps (but you have to purchase the 5 amp power supply/wall wart that it needs…it isn’t included in the base price). The second good thing is the marvellous DT400 throttle with its two encoder knobs that you twirl to get trains to move.

However, it is blind. It can talk, sing, dance, do the dishes, but it can’t see where to put the dishes. You have to put the dishes away for it. IOW, you must remember your decoder CV settings. When you access them, the display only shows a “00” value. It is a drawback, for sure, and one that could be forgiven in a system as ancient as it now is. The Zephyr is much cheaper, you can add a DT400 for whatever bucks, and you can add a booster here and there as you need them (plus a power supply for each booster…don’t forget!). But it will also tell you immediately that you dial in a CV what the last entered value was.

-Crandell

15

Or use JMRI…it keeps a file for each loco…

David B

16

[quote user=“cudaken”]

I have been so close for some time to up grading my DCC system. My current bench has around 200 feet of rails. Command station is a mer E-Z with a MRC 8 amp booster. I seem to have plenty of power.

I asked Ken (the owner) about the Digitrax computer interfaces but he did not have one. Then I started asking questions about the Zepher (it all so came up I will be building a bigger layout in the new house) and the Empire Builder. Guy named Don (not sure if he is a silent partner or just helps out like I did) asked me how big the new layout will be. If I get the house I want the bench will be around 19 X 19 and I hope to have 5 main lines all around 65 foot. With spurs and branch lines there could be around 400 feet of track.

At that point he told me I did not want a Zepher or a Empire Builder, I need to start with a 20 amp power supply and started to go on. My eyes started to glazes over and told Ken I call you Friday for a list of what I will need and the part number for the interfaces.

Now, am I missing something here? Is not the strong point of Digitrax the fact you can add to it?

What is the 20 amp power supply he told me I need to start with, I don’t think it is a booster.

He all so said I did not want the Zepher or Empire because I want to add throttles? Something about using the throttles as the command station with the 20 amp thing?

Reason for the Zepher, use it as the desk control, add walk around throttles. Use it 2.5 amp power supply say for 2 of the main lines and 8 amp booster for the other 3 lines.

Empire builder, has the better throttle and 5 amp booster. It with the 8 amp booster should power 5 mains with say 20 engines. That is figuring 5 lines with 4 engine constants.

What am I missing if anything? I must add, if I get the other house all the main lines will not come on line the same day.

17

Is it the Digitrax Super Chief that gives you CV readback along with basically everything else the Empire Builder has?

How about support for function controls? Early on, one of the starter-set limitations was not supporting some of the higher function numbers. Now, with sound everywhere, some manufacturers are putting out sounds in the F20’s, which many of the relatively new systems don’t support.

18

What exactly did you purchased, is it a NCE PH Pro with a Pro Cab or an NCE Power Cab, both units are in a different ball game ?

19

On a Digitrax system one can access F0 to F28 with Decoder Pro, the forthcoming DT402 will also be capable of F0 to F28. My NCE Power Cab is capable of F0 to F28 inclusive there is only the “Option Key” to program for the feature. I did not bother to enable this gadget as for the time being there is no sound decoder worthy of the name supporting F13 to F28 with useful sounds.

20

Cudaken, I have great respect for you and wouldn’t presume to tell you what to do but IMO about the cheapest way for you to go at the moment is to get the Zephyr and use it with your 8 amp booster. You’ll have more than enough power and you’ll have the CV readback as well. You can always add a DT400 or DT402 later. The Zephyr will handle up to 10 trains with multiple loco consists. I don’t know why you’d want to run more than that at once. I have my hands full with 4 trains.