I could not agree more. I was waiting for months to find a small engine for 1895. I found nothing aside from Roundhouse, which has pretty good stuff.
I send emails to BLI and MTH today encouraging them to make a smaller steam locomotive. I’ll let everyone know how they respond. - Nevin
If you were to check the BLI Forum you would find that the small steam subject comes up often. It is not that they have never been asked for small steamers.
There has been no real statment from BLI on the subject, just various readers posting their opinions both for and against.
I myself will hope that when Bachmann announces their new engines in a couple of weeks there will be a small steamer in the news.
A friend of mine recently asked me build a small display layout for his shop. It was supposed to depict a typical western town in the 1870´s or 1880´s. I started to search for locos and rolling stock and was disappointed to find out, that the epitome of American steam locos, the 4-4-0 is only available as a cheap and toyish model from Bachmann. What about all those Americans, Atlantics, Ten-Wheelers, Consolidations and Moguls, that used to roam the roads up into the 1930´s and, as hand-me-downs to class 2 roads, sometimes up until the 1950´s?
There is much more to the world than those Big Boys, Challengers, FEF´s J-Classes, Mohawk´s, TTT´s and 9000´s etc suggest…[:-,]
How nice it would be if someone would produce some good brass-KIT !! for some of the smaller steamers.
There is many producers worldwide of brass kits, but I haven´t found any for the US market?!
I would buy some for sure.
An example of a brass kit:
A Swedish BJ H3/A6 Steamer built by Lasse “LokTok” in Sweden from a kit made by “Byggsvenskt”. They are not supercheap at around $ 550, but if made in a bit larger series they would be more affordable.
If a small company in Sweden can make these, surely someone in the US can make it too?
Or is the market for real kits so small that it isn´t viable at all?
I’ll just keep posting the pic of that little 2-6-0. To remind those of us that forget about the issue of big boys not doing local switching on light rails or branchlines or—[}:)]
I think the big problem with making smaller steam locomotives is that there is sooooo much variation between the different Railway companies that no one want to produce a “specialized” model for fear of not selling it.
The Pennsy was different from the NYC & the CPR was different from the CNR/GT etc etc.
With a lot of people in this hobby saying that the models HAVE to be detail specific I’m willing to bet that has scared off a bunch of manufacturers from wanting to make smaller , not so “mainstream” steam locomotives.
Not everyone models the Pennsy or the UP. I really don’t need steam locomotives from either of these Railroads.
What makes me raise an eyebrow, the D&H had a Challenger similar to the UP’s but I’ve never seen one made by manufacturer who made a UP Challenger.
Gordon
A major point that is continually overlooked, or posters simply want to ignor in threads such as these, is that most of today’s manufacturers (really importers) of large, high quality, HO locomotives are small companies whose goal is to maximize their profit per unit. Unlike in days long gone by, when most of the model railroad products companies were owned by hobbyists, or former hobbyists, who wanted to see the hobby grow while turning a modest profit participating in it, today most companies are intent on offering items that will garner them the most return in the least time. They are aiming ever more toward a collector’s market, rather than a the mass market. The fact is that the regular HO pastic loco market is evolving toward the state of the former brass collecting market, where quality, volume and price are concerned.
These companies understand that they can not make small locomotives of high quality and sell large numbers of them at the same prices they are setting for their large engines (today $300-$600). The market simply won’t accept that. At the same time, the manufacturers are not going to dramatically cut their profit margin simply to make consumers happier. MTH is presently considering production of a small 4-6-0 camelback. It will be priced around $450. Just how many of those engines, about the size of the IHC Mogul, do you think they can sell at that figure?
Huge companies, like Bachmann, will likely remain the main source of modestly priced. medium quality, small locomotives in the hobby’s future. They can afford to do it. All the write-in campaigns in the world aren’t likely to alter the situation with the others.
CNJ831
I am afraid you are quite right with your statement. But isn´t it a pity, that those bread-and-butter-locos are not made available by Athearn, Atlas and Bachmann - may be not as limited runs in the premium segment?
I have been observing the market development now for nearly 4 decades and small locos other than your USRA 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 switchers have never been available to a degree, only by brass importers.
Ulrich, I’m afraid that you are seriously mistaken if I understand you statement correctly as indicating that smaller road engines were always the exception.
Virtually from the hobby’s inception until about 15 years ago, in the USA almost the entire scope of available non-brass steam locomotives were those of modest size and wheel arrangement. John English, PennLine, Varney, AHM, Mantua, MDC and Bowser ruled the hobby with their 4-6-2, 4-6-4, 2-8-0, 2-8-2, and 2-8-4 wheel arrangements and these were regarded as really large engines compared with the many smaller locomotives also available. In this period things like 2-10-0s, 2-10-2s, or larger were regarded as monsters and generally sold poorly, except to the collector element. Essentially the only place where I saw Big Boys, Challengers and the like actually operating in those days was on very large club layouts, or private mega-layouts. Those of us with home layouts appreciated that very large steam was totally out of character with what modest layouts were about. Only in the past 15 years or so has the nature of what model railroaders want to purchase in the way of motive power (and other things!) shifted from the commonly representative to the extremes.
CNJ831
As you are much closer to the market than I am, you are more likely to be right than I am.
When I received my first copy of MR in 1969, it was my perception that the likes of Mantua, Tyco and LifeLike had a limited choice of more toy-like locos, dominated by Mikados and Pacifics of USRA origin and AHM/Rivarossi was offering Big Boys, Challengers, Berkshires and Alleghenies. The market of smaller locos was taken care of by the brass importers, which were way out of reach for me.
When I look at the market of today, most of the brass importers are gone and with them the availability of smaller steam motive power.
While many of these companies may still be relatively small, the number of them has also shrunk I’d suspect as well. The rhetoric one hears in most business schools is that you are only in the business to make a profit. That usually means that the only thing you go after is what SELLS and hence generated the most profit per unit. Certain value systems that were more centered around doing things that you enjoyed doing generated that profit because what you did and how you dealt with your customers actually was more important than just satisfying some number crunchers on your board or in your own head.-[:-^] It was more into GROWING that market rather than dumping, “discontinuing”, or just abandoning whole sectors just because it was not making that dollar bill. One had to work at that building up-----but then, what do I know----
One does not need the Bernie Mad(e)off’s to do this. If the idea is out there that the profit or profit margin is all that matters then you would see the concentration on what sells. No magic there—
The hobbyist better start sharpening not just their pencils—they might want to learn those skills to become more self sufficient—[swg]
A camelback would be nifty as someone mentioned but I think each was very specific in design by road. But if someone can successfully sell an oddball novelty like an Erie Tri-plex, I suppose many would be oohed and awed by a small camelback.
I don´t buy in to the argument of “they can´t make small steamers because of the price”.
We don´t buy the locos by weight do we? If the loco has the same amount of detail and features as the larger one, shouldn´t it be priced in the same class?
Of course that it should be a little cheaper due to the smaller number of parts required to make it.
On the other end of the spectrum, look at the pricing of 0-scale locos. They aren´t harder to manufacture than H0 and the major difference is the motor and amount of material required to make them. Nevertheless the prices on 0-scale isn´t reflected on that, as they often are twice the price of H0!
I think it is something I call “pricing with the eye” involved here. The bigger the object the greater the price.
Looking over the Walther’s site, it appears that the wheel arrangements are available. I think the real issue isn’t small steam, but small steam for “my” era, “my” favorite railroad, etc. Add in the differences of those who want highly detailed and those who want low cost and it becomes a difficult market.
In years gone by, no one greatly worried about matching a particular prototype except for brass. Modelers would buy parts to make the engines look like a particular prototype. They bought upgrade gears and motors from NWSL to make them run better.
I think the current market offerings are as good as we’re going to see. The multiple offerings of Big Boys probably reflect the market - a lot of people seem to like the really big engines. And if Bachmann’s 4-4-0’s don’t sell well, I doubt anyone one else will make any.
Enjoy
Paul
I think that Bachmann’s 4-4-0’s sell–it is just that there more collectors of the larger locomotives than modellers. Big Boys, Challengers, FEF’s et al will tend to sell more in a collector dominant market–we also are suffering from a market wherein we see more RTR who do not want to redo, kitbash, remake or what have you their desired locomotives.
We may see that split wherein the smaller lokes get made by smaller companies—if’n this keeps up I’ll get piculous myself and do the dang things—I’m already mucking around with various mfg processes[:-,]
Myself–if ol’ Fred down at the Williston Hysterical RR Museum desires a certain 4-6-2 with a certain set of cylinders it will continue to be made in that form—scratchbuilding or kitbashing or otherwise[:-^]
Paul
The 4-4-0’s in the past have not excited the train buying public like the larger steam because many of those in the past ran poorly. The electrical pick up of only two drivers and the light weight of these models limited them to very short trains and some very poor running models.
The short train consist is actually correct since the early locomotives pulled short trains and that configuration would be better for our HO scale railroads if we were honest. I remember many smaller brass models including 4-6-0’s that did not run well because of the limited electrical pickup on the drivers and the model being so light weight caused most of us to ignore them.
The electrical pick up limitation probably can be overcome now with the power being picked up on both side of the engine and tender and using DCC. All of the improvements might allow the smaller locomotives to sell fairly well now if the price is low. Even the Union Pacific had a couple of 4-6-0’s around on branch lines in later years and preserved two of those.
CZ
Most RR’s even 50 years ago were still doing most of their running out on branchlines hence all the little switchers et al. Palmerston ON–where I took that one of the 2-6-0’s. That whole region was covered by CN/CP until the 1970’s/80’s.
Hence the problem of selling small–the reputation of the poor running small lokes probably did scare off the potential buyer—and that has carried on to the current generation of runs—which do run very well in DC/DCC—in N scale no less–
Yep, I agree we don’t need more articulated engines. Personally, I think a heavy train is much more interesting to watch with doubleheaded smaller steam than a single large engine. More drivers and rods in action! Plus, put another (say 2-8-0) on the end pushing but running in reverse - beautiful!
Chris