What am I doing wrong here???

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

OK , heres the picture in a nut shell, I have a 4X8 layout with two individual track systems running so the grandsons have their own train to operate, the outside loop is a basic circle this one has no problems what so ever, the 2nd track is an inside loop with 3 turn out sections where trains can be parked, it is this track that will only accept one type of locomotive on it and that is the GP-40 anything else like an F-7 will derail and not always at the same point???

I can run 1 locomotive by itself, if I add cars, the cars will derail but not always at the same point, it is as though I can’t predict when or where they will derail?

I’ve triple checked my track connections, they are all clean and seem to be getting enough power but I can’t figure out for the life of me what is going wrong on this track???

Any suggestions or help will be much valued before the Grandsons come back to play.

I clean the tracks before each session, I check the connections, set the trains properly on the rails and no mater at what speed I’m still having problems, what the heck am I missing here?

Other details, code 100 atlas track, with atlas turn outs, cork road bed, not a very big track, locomotives run on track 1 work great but the same locomotives on track two act up, skip, hesitate, derail and sometimes come to a complete stop, both tracks are fed through a switch system which checks out with a meter?

Please help?

I’m loosing my mind here!!!

Thanks in advance for any help, guesses or speculations.

2

I’m just guessing here but it pretty much look like you have too tight curve radiuses.Flex track can be curved only to a certain extent without the rails starting to pinch and become out of gauge.Also,some locos will handle pretty tight curves while others won’t.Could this be?

3

Red,

Trust me, I know how frustrating track issues can be, but I’m winging it here…

The electrical problem might a short somewhere. Have you checked that? You just have sidings, right? No reversing loop? And you’re using separate transformers? If so, swap the leads and see what happens.

Can you actually see where the wheels are coming off the track? Maybe the derail becomes apparent at different spots, but wheel is actually riding over the rail at one or a few spots? I had a problem where the locos / rolling stock were actually derailing coming around a turn in a tunnel, but the loco / car didn’t really come off until it hit an incline, turnout, or crossing. Try getting your eye down at track level and using a flashlight until you actually see the wheel come off.

Some things to check:

  1. Is all the track on your inner loop in gauge?

  2. Any turnout points that don’t quite seat against the rail

  3. Did you kink any of the track joints trying to match up ends?

  4. Is your track solidly mounted to your roadbed?

  5. Do you have any curves on which the outer rail is lower than the inner (the opposite of superelevation)?

  6. Do you have a turn tighter than a 18" radius?

As I said, winging it! Good luck.

4

Bad rail joiners, or not enough power or ground drops or taps would be my guess. Don’t fall for the 'one tap ground" you need as many ground taps as power taps. [:D]

Rotor

5

Given that the trains run fine on the outer loop, this looks like a track problem.

There are many things that can cause trains to derail and derailments can be difficult to diagnose in-person let alone without seeing the track and trains in question. If you don’t already have one, consider getting a book on track laying. You might be able to borrow a track laying book from your local library - even if they need to do an inter-libarary loan.

Are your curves too tight for the trains (less than minimum radius)?

Are the rails properly inserted into both ends of the rail joiners? The rail joint should feel smooth when you run your finger along the inside edge.

Are your switch machines keeping the points in place and are the points set to match the direction your trains are running?

If you are using flex track, you need to be very careful about how you install it. Flex track rail joints on a curve can be especially challenging because the last couple inches of rail will try to stay straight (one technique is to solder the rail with the track straight and then bend it). When cutting the rail you need to do your best to duplicate the clean, square, factory finished ends.

6

It sounds like you need to get that NMRA gauge I sent you the link to and check ALL your wheels and track.
This is a derailing problem, not an electrical problem, right? I bet your inside curves are too tight or your rails or wheels are not in gauge. Your coupler trip pins may be hanging too low and catching on a turnout also. If I remember correctly, you don’t have any turnouts on your outer loop for your trip pins to catch on.
A train can derail 2-3’ after it passes over a problem spot which can drive you crazy because it’s NOT the same spot every time. (which is exactly what your describing,)

7

Wow, looks like I have a lot of things too concider here, I did have to “snip” some track so I will go back and check for burs on the cut ends.

I do not have any reversing loops I was sure to stay away from those.

I have to head out for a 24 hr. shift but will check all these suggestions when I get home on Thursday, Thanks guys!

8

Check to see if your track dips or rises on one side. Having both rails level then suddenly have one drop or rise will play havok with your trains.

9

Jess,

From what I can see in the pics, you may have a couple of issues. As you mentioned, the outer loop is pretty straightforward and it has the largest radius turns and no turnouts. The inner loop looks very tight on radius and in combination with the Atlas turnouts which are famous for being out of gauge in places can cause these problems. In addition it looks like you’ve got at least one S bend right at a switch and that can be a problem also.

The advice you have so far to check gauge on track and cars and to check the track for kinks is right on. Another help is to make sure the cars are heavy enough and not too long for the curves you have. In general shorter rolling stock can work on tighter curves. In general adding weight can help up to a point. Are you using plastic wheels or metal? in a lot of cases, the metal works better and is more forgiving. Many of the older plastic wheels are worn or slightly chipped or dented and when everything aligns just so can help a precarious situation turn into a derailment. Hope this helps. J.R.

10

All the above suggestions are correct in actions to take. It’s time to invest in an NMRA gauge and gauge the track, then gauge the wheels on the rolling equipment. One other thing thats not mentioned is filing Atlas turnouts. Take a jeweler’s file and file the frog down where the wheels meet the straight track and the diverging track. there is a plastic hump built into the frog at the ends and it can cause derailments. I file all my frogs on Atlas turnouts. Also, file the point rails at an angle so that the rolling stock won’t “pick” the point rail. It just needs a little bit of metal removed from each point rail. I’ts not necessary to hog it down to nothing. A small 45º angle at the point rail is sufficient.

11

Well OK then, boy there are a lot of smart people here and I feel lucky to have all this help and some day hope to be helping someone new to the hobby.

I will tend to all these possible issues, I have weighted the 10 cars that my F7 hauls and I’m running the plastic wheels with the metal axels, I will pick up a track and wheel gage from my LHS in a day or so.

I did get a chance to run my finger along the rails on my way out and felt at least two places that my wheels could be catching.

The part that had me wondering what was going on is the fact that I had that inside track running great for a while, every locomotive ran just fine and I had no problems and then all of a sudden, BAM it seemed like everything was derailing.

I will be a busy boy when I get back home and when I get it straightened out I’ll post what the problem(s) were.

Thanks again my Friends, if it were not for this site and you folks I would have packed it in way before this.

Happy Rails, Jess.

12

You mentioned in your first post stuttering and stalling, as well as derailing. It sounds as if you have multiple problems.

What has changed between when the inner loop WAS running good, and now? Did you ballast the track? Perhaps the ballast is fouling the track?

Layout construction can produce lots of dust and debris that may be fouling the track. Did you spray scenic cement? Glue on the rail head will cause eletrical contact issues. Try cleaning the track and wheels.

You will get it figured out, I am certain.

Rotor

13

You may have solved the sputtering problem for me, I did spray some dull coat and it could have gotten on that section where the power and flickering train lights started, I’ll clean them all good and then get on to the derailment problems, thanks!!!

14

Anytime you paint the rails (or spray anything -even water) near the rails it’s not a bad idea to clean the railheads. I use a brite boy for this sort of thing. Others say brite boys make scratches in the rail heads that collect dirt/grime and so should be avoided. Some 400 grit emery paper (very find sand paper) will work too. That dull-cote will definitely put an uneven insulating layer on top of your rails.

You mentioned having plastic wheels with metal axles. I recommend replacing plastic wheel sets as soon as feasible

15

Are the locos that constantly derail Athearn (non-Genesis) F7’s by any chance?

I have one, and found that it constantly derailed on curves. Upon closer inspection, the brake cylinders on the truck sideframes were hitting the drop-steps on the side ladders (the little ladder steps that stick down below the bottom edge of the shell), physically preventing the truck from turning too far - anything sharper than about a 30" curve and it would pop off the track. Apparently this is a common problem with Athearn F units, which is easily solved by trimming the drop steps and/or brake cylinder gear as needed.

Also, are you trying to run the trains too fast on the inner loop? The tighter radius might call for a little slower speed to keep the flanges from climbing up over the top of the outside rail.

One more thing I just thought of: you mention your freight cars derail at random times. Are they all of similar size? If you have cars of different lengths back to back (e.g. a 55-ton 2 bay open hopper coupled to a 3-bay covered hopper), they can often cause derailments on tight curves, just because of the difference in physical motion of the two cars as they go around the curve together.

16

In most cases I just remove the brake cylinders or don’t put them on in the first place. Them not being there doesn’t bother me at all.

17

NMRA gauge, check every inch, check connections for smoothness, check truck swing on all equipment. Run your train slowly around and watch the wheels, hand on the throttle, when you notice a derail asap, kill power.

Hand roll a car around you know is derailing.

one more check not seen mentioned. Look at the wheel treads on all equipment for grit/dirt on the treads. Scrape off if present.

Take a paper towel, lay it over track, squirt a little alcohol on it and roll your cars over it, take an engine run 1/2 onto it and hold it running over the towel, flip around and do again.

You will be surprised the dirt that comes off.

18

JESSE:

DERAILMENTS are almost always Mechanical in nature. (1) Your wheels are not following the track. (They have to agree)… Tracks and Wheels. SOLUTION: An NMRA Gage.

Now it sounds like it’s a switch since your derailments are happening on the inner loop.

(2) check to see if wheels aren’t coming off at a switch, and ‘derailing’ further down on the track. SOLUTION: Slooowly run and with your eyeball up close, see if this isn’t what’s happening.

If it’s the points, file a chamfer. If it isn’t, replace the switch. Not all switches are the same. Peco’s geometry is not Atlas’, nor are Atlas’ Snap switches the same as their #4’s.

I am pretty certain a turnout is bad - or mis-installed.That many wheelsets couldn’t be wrong! After you have done the above, check back in.

19

Nice looking layout. Derailments are sometimes the fault of the rolling stock, sometimes the fault of the track and sometimes both. If the derailment always occurs at the same place, it’s a track problem. If some rolling stock always derails and others do not, it’s a rolling stock problem.

Rolling stock problems:

  1. Wheels ouf of gauge too wide or too narrow

2 Trucks not swiveling freely, getting caught on underbody parts.

  1. Trucks too loose and wobbling.

  2. Gladhand on knuckle couplers too low and hanging up on turnouts or crossovers.

  3. Bad wheels. broken flanges, wheel on crooked, heavy dirt layer stuck to tread.

Track problems:

  1. Out of gauge, too wide or too narrow.

  2. Kinks

  3. Bumpy joints. Check that rail joiners are mating properly.

  4. Turnouts often need touch up with a file. Check points, frogs, guard rails and file any rough sports smooth.

Good luck

20

Jess,

We’re not really that smart. It’s just that anyone who’s been in this hobby for a while has had a trackwork problem or a car / loco that just won’t cut it. We speak with the voice of experience, not genius.

Most people on these forums are happy to help. Pay it forward! Most of us have gotten help here, too.

When (NOT if) you do find the problem or problems, be sure to let us know what it was. For one thing, we’re rooting for you. For another, we’re always looking for another trackwork gremlin to post on the next thread.