I agree with Stix. The only way to run them together would be to have block controls, flicking switches as the locos run forward, changing the polarity of each block through a dedicated SPDT switch (for each block). But you would need to have at least one block to isolate one block from another to avoid a loco shorting the system when travelling through one block to another. And Ys would need to have the polarity changed for 2 rail operation - a wiring nightmare. Really not worth the effort in my opinion. A simple loop with a SPDT switch to go from DC 2 rail to 3 rail AC is feasible.
Well, we’re talking HO now, right? I have a Marklin train that I bought years ago because “reasons.” Everything else is conventional 2-rail HO. At present, I just have a switch on my fascia to switch that one branch line between 2-rail and 3-rail so I can run my Marklin train when the mood hits me. I have no plan to do this to my whole layout.
Now let’s talk O. Those two locomotives I recently acquired are Lionel 3-rail O, and Lionel uses a proprietary control system that’s sort’a, kind’a DCC in that you can run multiple trains independently on the same track circuit, but it’s not really DCC. In this case, I’m gonna stay in the Lionel universe, just as you suggest. If I had known what a pain in the poo-poo hole O scale was gonna be, I’d have told my friend, “No thanks! You can keep your locomotives!” (Just kidding – I wouldn’t insult my friend like that.)
I’m gonna respectfully suggest that you need to do a LOT more research on O scale, as a lot of what you’re saying simply isn’t true.
Lionel does not have a “proprietary control system” that you have to have to run their trains. You can run Lionel (and MTH and Bachmann/Williams and Menards) engines using a relatively inexpensive AC power pack/transformer. You can run the engine, change direction, ring the bell, and blow the horn.
If you choose to go into the three-rail version of DCC, you can use MTH’s DCS system to run their engines - or Lionel’s. Lionel has made several different types of control systems over the years (TMCC, Legacy) but they can run any Lionel engine - and I believe most if not all MTH engines. They’re basically like DCC, except the control message are sent by radio signals through the rails.
“Please note that all of our LEGACY locomotives will operate on TMCC and conventional controlled layouts. Likewise, TMCC and LEGACY systems can also control conventional, TMCC and LEGACY equipped locomotives.”
Yes, what you say is true. But I think I’ve made it abundantly clear that I don’t want to run my trains on a traditional power pack/transformer!
And maybe I shouldn’t have called O scale “a pain in the poo-poo hole.” I know I overreact when I get frustrated. Sorry for being human. But Lionel isn’t guilt-free either! Lionel should have gone with industry standad DCC for their locomotives as specified by the NMRA.
Lionel never had anything to do with the NMRA. Period. When the NMRA was created, the NMRA specifically rejected Lionel’s inexpensive technology that was also used by Marx, K-line, American Flyer and most other toy train makers. By using 3 rail, Lionel was able to keep wiring simple no matter the track configuration. NMRA “scale” modelers hated the unrealistic 3 rail, and insisted on a 2 rail standard. By using AC, Lionel (and all the others using AC) could use readily available motors that didn’t lose their magnetism with time, and could use reliable variable transformers that didn’t have the selenimum rectifiers (silicon diodes weren’t readily available until the 1960s) that were subject to breakdown over time and required huge heat sinks.
12V DC was selected by the NMRA (some were using 6V DC at the time) so that the smaller permanent magnet motors could be fitted into scale HO locomotives. Most of the permanent magnet motors from the 1950s (the height of Lionel) are no longer usable because the magnets are dead (replacing magnets can bring many of them back to life). Most of the field wound Lionel motors are still running just fine.
Lionel was using a 13.5" radius for it’s O27 track quite successfully, which meant you could fit an O27 layout in virtually the same space as HO. NMRA O standards contemplate nothing less than 30" radius, and prefer 60" radius.
Lionel’s HO product did comply with NMRA standards in effect at time of production. It’s pre-WW2 OO product was pre-NMRA and used the same technology as Lionel O.
There have been many proprietary command control systems - Lionel had one in 1946 that used radio signals in the track. Astrac (by GE) was the next major effort ci
In the early days of the hobby, the difference between “toy trains” and “model trains” wasn’t that clear. In the Depression, there wasn’t that much available, and most folks had limited extra income. Even many pioneer modellers like Al Kalmbach used three-rail AC engines from Lionel, American Flyer, Ives, etc. on their layouts. Marx O-34 track (34" diameter curves) worked with Lionel track and was popular.
Yes, Lionel in the late thirties came out with full-scale Hudson and Pennsy B-6 switcher models (and scale freight cars and “T-rail” flat-top track) but for what a 700E scale Hudson cost ($85 IIRC) you could buy a couple of “semi-scale” American Flyer engines and have enough left over to build a complete small layout. The less detailed Lionel 763 Hudson, made to take sharper O-31 curves, cost about 1/3 of the scale engine and was much more popular.
BTW well into the 1970s there were still O scale modellers running on AC power, using outside third-rail handlaid track. As I mentioned earlier, John Armstrong ran outside third-rail until he passed.
No, O27 is actually 27" diameter - on the outside rail. About 13" radius measured on center. All the Oxx track is based on diameter, not radius. Some of it is measured to the centerline, others to the outside rail. Most O27-compatible rolling stock is actually closer to 1/64 size, has absolutely no underbody detail, and works just fine.
Lionel for decades made both “O” and “O27” tinplate track. O track had a 31" diameter curve and had taller rails and thicker ties. O27 track is 27" diameter curves, but the rails and ties are lower. This means you can’t mix-and-match, you need to use one or the other.
In some cases, Lionel made two versions of the same engine, one for O and one for O27 curves. IIRC the O versions used a three-digit number, O27 used four-digit numbers. An O27 engine can run on O gauge track, but an O gauge engine generally can’t take the tighter O27 curve. If the layout uses larger curves, like Fastrack O36 curves, either engine will work fine on it.
(I use the past tense because I believe Lionel announced a couple years ago that they were only going to be making “Fastrack” going forward, and not do the traditional tinplate track anymore.)
To add to the potential confusion, in the late 1970s K-Line began making Lionel-compatable O and O27 track sections, but in both original and wider curves. So you could build an “O72” layout (O gauge, 72" diameter curves) using either O or O27 style track. O42 became particularly popular because it was the broadest curve you could fit on a 4’ x 8’ sheet of plywood.
Marx also made O27 track. Marx made O27 track in a 34" diameter as well as 27". Marx switches can handle deeper and thicker flanges than most of the Lionel O27 and O switches. The earlier Marx tinplate equipment will not go through the Lionel switches easily because of the thicker and deeper flanges.
O27 track can be mixed with O style track with little difficulty. It requires opening the O27 rail slightly to accommodate the larger O track pins, and acceptance of ramps between the 2 track levels.
