What do think about M.W. Hemphill’s column in Dec. 2004 TRAINS RE:the plight of T&E service?
What are your solutions to this problem of super duper or I should say totally unreal working schedules that endanger the Engineers and Conductors themselves and the community through which they operate trains??[:0]
Is there another solution other than a large army of car maintainers and track workers???
I think (as a T&E guy) that Mark is absolutely right and no, there is no easy “silver bullet” solution that won’t cost an arm and a leg.
LC
Actually,
we like it the way it is…
Those who want to ride the board do so…
If they cant hack the hours, they cant hack railroading in the first place…
Trust me, this stuff aint for everybody.
First time you get caught out in a hail storm or a thunder storm will let you know if this is for you…the long hours are part of the job.
And, like I posted before, no one lied to me about it, I was told up front the hours were horrible, the work hard, dirty and dangerous.
You know in a week if you want to do this the rest of your life.
Like Mark said, unless they spend several times the amount on personel, it is as good as it can get right now.
Ed
Mark is right on the button.
Any solution will run the costs up to the point where no shipper will pay rates that will let the companies stay out of bankruptcy.
There’ve been several instances where the T&E guys have wanted to change the hours and days of their jobs to those of store or office employees. But when they do that , they reduce the value of their services to that of store or office employees, just like Mark said.
I’ve told this anecdote before: A train was setting out at a tower I was working and the conductor came up to deliver the waybills. He was grousing mightily about having to work nights (I was the third trick operator, a time I never minded and in fact enjoyed) and weekends and holidays.
When I was able to interject a question, I asked him “if you want a regimented 40-hour work week, why don’t you go to work in a store?”
He was honest, I’ll say that. He said “you can’t make any money working in a store.”
If that’s the case, why not be happy with your situation and quite b******g about it?
Old Timer
A little more concern for the crews by the people already working in crew management could bring some inprovement. Many times I’ve been able to look at train lineups in the computer and see that I would not be needed at my away from home terminal. Yet crew management says go to the motel. Then 24 hours later I get a call to deadhead home in a taxi.
Wow! As usual, Mark’s column is succinct and to the point.
I recently applied for a train service job for the UP. Am I crazy, is this foolishness?
I love trains and need a job with better pay and benefits. I realize that I must work all the time and the only real time off will be when I’m on vacation.
Operating Railroad jobs are not for the faint of heart and the weak of dedication or constitution.
We have child labor laws, even though a pure free enterprise system would allow them to be employed. That is what “Enlightenment” in Adam Smith’s definition of the best economic system is all about. Sure we should see legislation passed that guarrantee that any engineer or other trainman on the job has had a decent rest before working and does not work beyond a reasonable time. And if this applies to truck drivers as well, then there will be no economic loss for the railroads in applying this additional safety measure. I think the rail unions themselves should push for it and insist in shouyld also apply to truck and bus drivers. And limousine and cab drivers for that matter!
The bravado expressed by the some of the T&E respondees ignores the truth that you guys are operating 5000 to 10,000 Ton freight trains at 40 to 60 MPH through American communities of all sizes at NOT your best state of alertness and sharpness.
Not to mention the fact the during the course of your career your kids don’t know who the hell you are! Just a guy or gal who shows up at weird hours and plops on the bed and soon arises at the next telephone call from the crew dispatch center. So much for “family values”!
As a narcotics detective in NYC I know what is like to work all kinds of tours with at all kinds of irregular times with as little as 4 hours between tours of duty. There were more than a few times that I found myself falling asleep at the wheel at 40 to 60 MPH. In fact I had friends of mine had car accidents on the way home due to the fact of being so tired.
So saying how “BIG and BAD” your are for being a T&E crew member and how it is not for the faint of heart misses the point entirely. As dangerous as my job is I don’t have to be 100% alert all the time. There is down time in the office, preparation, etc. But you guys got be alert ALL THE TIME or someone gets hurt or killed. No way you can say with a straight face that the way the system is set up now that you are operating America’s freight trains at the highest level of safety and efficiency.
Airline crews even the freight carriers like UPS and FedEx have a schedule while they are away from home for a period of time they can at least plan their lives to some degree. The FAA had long recognized you can’t treat flight crews like “rented mules” and still have a world leading aviation system.
I think you Engineers and Conductors deserve much better than you have been putting up with and especially YOUR CHILDREN. They need their fathers and mothers not just financial and benefit providers. And not to mention America deserves better, knowing that the crew members of that merchandise freig
Colin-
I have to agree with Mark generally, but, let me say the following:
There is no comparison between being a cop and being in T&E service. In case you are wondering, yes I have done both. Police officers on patrol are shift workers. Even detectives in large departments are primarily shift work. On the railroad, your shift begins anytime and effectively ends anytime the RR desires as although you can operate a train for a maximum of 12 hours we often have limbo time that makes it a LOT worse. The MAJOR difference is that with shift work, even though it varies there is always the ability to plan something. On the RR, forget it. This leads to rest issues above and beyond what you can expect from shift work.
In the same way Cops look for OT, Railroaders want there shot at the best wage they can get. As Mark correctly points out RRers will fight to perpetuate this situation. Look at some of the efforts made by RRs, particularly the IC and UP to schedule shift work. RRers hated it and voted against it or refused to participate due to the loss of income.
As to down time, we get some of that too. Not all of our time is spent running the train. Most of us wish it was.
LC
Limited Clear
As a Narc I DO NOT have regularly set shift. The Commanding Officer sets a schedule sometimes but he will change it at the last minute. Every single day is different from the next. The only time I work human hours is when I am scheduled for court or training. So I have more in common w/T&E crews than a regular Detective or PO.
What I thank God for is the RDO Regular Days Off which T&E guys do not have I does give a bit of sanity to an insane situation.
Mark, I heard of UP’s effort to bring regularity to crew scheduling but what was IC’s efforts consist of??
Some improvements have been made to work scheduling for road boards. For instance, BNSF, at some stations but not all, have 'rest cycles" for xtra bd & pool bd crews. You have the option of taking the days or staying marked up and make more money. For example, the road boards at Enid,OK and W Qiuncy, MO are “7&3” jobs where you stay marked up for 7 days, then can take 1 to 3 days off on your rest cycle if you so choose. This is a postive move and does help somewhat to have a life outside of the rr.
I certainly agree with Mark’s conclusion that the way Colin stated his contentions his point would not be well taken. Furthermore, let me say, I have nothing but respect for the difficulty and professionalism that constitutes your average railroad worker. However, to state Colin’s point a little more differently, I do see a problem with the many above statements, which effectively argue, “railroading is for tough, rugged individuals therefore, if you aren’t tough enough to handle the lack of sleep, do not apply.”
I think there is a “we can handle it because we are tough” attitude in railroading that is a remnant of Civil War military personnel infiltrating the ranks of railroads after the war. Although this attitude is often beneficial, I don’t think it is when it relates to sleep.
Sleep deprivation is not simply a matter of toughness. In my line of work, I see the tragic results of absolutely brilliant–and often “tough”–people who are sleep deprived doing something that they would never do in a million years on a good night’s sleep. Also, one should look at Army research concerning individual’s effectiveness when sleep deprived. The Army is just as tough as railroads–yet their results conclusively show lack of sleep substantially reduces the effectiveness of otherwise competent individuals. More chilling is this statistic in relation to “friendly fire” incidents.
Saying if you aren’t tough, you shouldn’t be a railroader just adds to the problem. It makes people feel as though they better not let anyone know that they are getting tired while they are in charge of a 10,000-ton chemical train–because that wouldn’t be tough. When the adrenalin is pumping, you might be able to effectively fight your way though sleep deprivation problems. However, one cannot run on adrenalin for twelve hours and there is nothing to really cause the body to produce adrenalin.
Gabe
P.S. Something that I am surprised hasn’t been mentioned thus far is naps. I
Gabe-
Many of the major systems have gone the napping route including UP, BNSF, Conrail, CSX and others. NS I believe does it at some larger terminals as well.
I can remember many a night heading out for my 1 1/2 hour trip home and hitting one or more napping stops at rest areas or convenience stores. The Extra List stinks and I was able to stay off it and regulate my hours a bit better on regular jobs as time went by. Seniority is a wonderful thing.
LC
From people who seem to know a lot about railroading and, thus far, have commanded my respect. To quote from this thread–alone–:
“Actually,
we like it the way it is…
Those who want to ride the board do so…
If they cant hack the hours, they cant hack railroading in the first place…
Trust me, this stuff aint for everybody.
First time you get caught out in a hail storm or a thunder storm will let you know if this is for you…the long hours are part of the job.”
“If that’s the case, why not be happy with your situation and quite b******g about it?”
“Operating Railroad jobs are not for the faint of heart and the weak of dedication or constitution.”
I am not sure my characterization is unsupported by these statements.
Gabe
Also, I certainly am not suggesting that railroaders seek danger for the sake of danger. Of course that is nonesense. However, even Limitedclear’s post suggested that being tired is part of the job, and you better be able to handle it.
My only contention is that people can’t “tough their way out of being tired” and from the posts under this heading alone–to say nothing of other threads, there seems to be a culture among railroaders that they shouldn’t “complain”–to use a slightly different word–when the job gets tough. In short, I was responding to the contention that it is possible to tough your way out of being tired–I was not faulting railroaders for the realities of their chosen occupation.
Gabe
Marc, i GOT THE MESSAGE. But we still hear about terminal delays being a major cause of long hours, of lack of coordination between the main line dispatchers and the yardmasters who have to receive and dispatch the trains. Both problems can be alleviated, that is this congestion problem and the crew alertness situation, by scheduling operations as much as possible, with intelligent planning that takes into consideration, yes the parking lot capacity and the washrooms and of course the physical track layout and the equipment and the expected traffic and most improtant the people. Apparently the BNSF Transcon and NS’s Triple Crown are pretty close to this ideal and the UP Chemical Coast the area needing the most improvement.
First,
I read back through, and can’t find a thing about “rough and tough” “we can handle anything”
What I can find is what I said…“if you can’t hack the hours, you can’t hack railroading”
Not because “us” railroaders are a tough bunch of guys…but because we have adjusted our lives to fit the schedule.
What I mean if you can’t do that,(adjust) you cant railroad…just as much as “if you cant hack the hours, you cant be a cop”.
Maybe I should have said,“If you cant live this lifestyle, you shouldn’t try this for a living”
Why?
Because the railroad isnt going to undergo a radical change in that area, by mutual consent of both parties.
Police departments arent going to change much in that area either, are they?
Collin, how often have you trailed a suspect, or sat on a suspect’s location, for hours at a time, doing nothing but watching and listening?
Lots, if your a career law enforcment officer.
So, after say, 10 hours of sitting in a van, or a house across the street from a suspect’s house, and everything suddenly goes wrong, I am supposed to trust you to be awake and alert enough to draw and use your sidearm in a safe manner, in a highly populated urban area, if the need arises?
If you can answer yes to that question, then you already know the answer to how we can sit on locomotive up to 12 hours, working our way across the country, and still be trusted to do the right thing if and when the need arises.
The same reason you can be trusted with a sidearm…training, then some more training, after which we train some, followed by a little more training…
We get tested on a regular basis, every thing from rules knowledge to red flag stop test…those that pass are the guys running the trains.
As a cop, are you required to perform a profeciency test every quarter, both in applied situtiations and in theory?
Do y
It seems to me that I hear about train wrecks involving crews falling asleep and running signals frequently.
Lots of respect for train crews and cops for the schedules you endure. Personally I couldnt handle it and I choose not to.
I do feel the industry has an obligation to it’s employees, shareholders, and customers, plus the communities they serve to address issues of safety. Now, whether or not this is a big enough “issue of safety”, I dont know. It sounds as if the 7and 3 schedule system would be a step in the right direction. But, to say that railroads cannot economically address this issue…I find that hard to believe. Fire Departments, ambulance services, off shore drilling companies and many others have faced and addressed the issue.
ed
Weres Ed Elis? the creator of Express he is missing from the artical