What do you want?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
21

That covers a lot of territory and considerable variations in size regardless of wheel arrangement. A Cotton Belt 4-4-2 was a real lightweight and only had 70" drivers. An 80" drivered Pennsy E6, on the other hand, was more powerful than a number of Pacifics. Even as far as 4-8-4’s go, they were all over the place in size varying from 361,000 lbs (engine only) on the TP&W to 510,000 lbs (engine only) on the AT&SF with drivers ranging in size from 69" on the TP&W to 80" on the drivers of the UP, SP, ATSF, and ACL. GN’s O-8 Mikados were bigger than some 4-8-4’s, so it’s all relative.

I think what you’re getting at is more of a concentration on middle-sized engines. For instance, an NC&STL J-3 or Cotton Belt L-1 sized 4-8-4 would be more layout friendly than a GS-4, an NYC S-1 or a Santa Fe 3776/2900 class. While both a USRA Light and Heavy 2-8-2 are moderate size engines, the light’s a bit more in keeping with the relatively short trains we can run as is the light Pacific in comparison with the Heavy.

What would be nice (although I ain’t holding my breath until it happens) would be some lighter Pacifics than the USRA light (say something along the lines of a Harriman light, a Santa Fe 1226 class or even an NKP K-1). A Harriman Mikado would be a nice contrast to the USRA engines and could be used alongside USRA engines as examples of earlier Mikado purchases. </

22

I was hoping someone would get the reference.

First, for those who didn’t watch this thread evolve, the original post was blank, thanks to the OP’s use of Windows Vista. So, all we had to go on was the title, “What do you want?”

I had a computer issue of my own at work last week. To resolve it, I had to call our outsourced corporate IT support line. They, in turn, wanted the answers to my “security questions” to verify my identity. I had quite forgotten the questions and answers I’d provided, so it was very surreal to actually have this conversation with someone in Texas:

What do you want?

Information.

Who is Number 1?

You are Number 6.

23

I agree on this one as well.

Two sure fire hits that continually come up but get ignored are the PRR H class 2-8-0 and the “standardized” Harriman counterpart.

There are soo many PRR modelers literally aching for consols that they would sell like those proverbial hotcakes. What the Harrinan lines lack in pure road specific followers is partially made up by the fact that multiple controlled roads had the same or very simmilar units.

IMO both winners and both very functional on medium to small layouts.

I’m fotunate to have 15x19, but more than 15 cars is operationally pushing it for that space and any fewer looks silly behind a 2-10-anything.

It has always amazed me that most layouts built (check this forum) are 4x8, but most locos sold are passenger and need to pull 80ft cars at 65 mph. Perhaps a slight exageration, but you see the point.

After those two I think the desires get real granular and difficult to estimate as far as sales potential.

Put me down for six H10s please.

Kerry AKA- the new number 6.

edit- aw that was the new number 2, wasn’t it?

Patrick McGoohan (#6) was one of the many celebrity deaths in '09.

…and BTW- thanks to AL Gore’s internet (and George Bush’s internets), we all now do, in fact have information!

24

Andre:

I’m with you on the 1950 2-8-0. For one, it’s cuter than a Bug. Heck, I’ve got two of them and I don’t even MODEL Santa Fe, LOL!

I remember when it was terrifically popular back then, and I also remember seeing it decalled (and often kit-bashed) for every little ‘short line’–both imaginary and prototypical under the sun. Okay, it’s not ‘generic’ like that little Spectrum Baldwin 2-8-0, but it was (and probably still is) a mainstay on a lot of model railroads. And it was a darned good little runner (mine still are).

Along with the PRR H-series and the “Harriman’s”, I think the 1950 2-8-0 just might get a lot of people away from Big Boys on 22" radius and into a nice, hefty, MEDIUM-SMALL loco that they’d probably fall in love with pretty quick.

Just my thoughts, you understand. Heck, I’d even do cartwheels for a non-brass Rio Grande C-48. Like the Santa Fe, it was cute and stubby and did the job.

Tom

25

Here’s another vote for things like a 2-8-0, 2-6-2, etc. I don’t know if I’ll ever have the basement that will support big steam (or big diesels either for that matter).

I would go for a good quality kit, that was designed from the ground (rails?) up to be “kitbasher” friendly. That is key parts like domes, valve gear, stacks, cabs could be interchangeable among a common set. I don’t know if this is making sense, but you could buy the locomotive kit, tender kit, and a detailing kit to create the locomotive you wanted. I’m all for kit building, it’s a dying art in our hobby.

26

A modular system for steam loco construction? This could be taken even further - interchangeable fireboxes (Wootten or Belpaire), cabs, etc.

27

It can be accomplished fairly easily as well. Base or foundation could be the frame and boiler—choice of motors, gearing, parts and finishing details to spec. I think this type of kit approach was done in the past and done fairly well.

A friend of mine and I are thinking about doing this as a cottage, or rather, niche business. The market may not be as large as all that right at the start but there is room for growth----

28

Or fully assembled mechs, for those who aren’t mechanically inclined (such as yours truly), ready to go under the completed boiler assembly.

29

I stopped caring whether some of the posters here had ever, ever heard of a period, comma, or question mark after Good ol’ Bergie once sent me a nastygram informing me that this is a model railroad forum and not an English 101 class. With that in mind I have avoided grammatical issues with the same fervor as I avoid exposure to the bubonic plague!

And there may(?) be restrictions on the shrinkability of an N-Scale steam engine but if Bachmann can squeeze in a generic(?) Consolidation there is hope for a future Uncle John’s 1950 or a Zulu.

30

Though it is very disconcerting for Lee English to now be manufacturing paper only in the U.S. (after nearly 40 years of his personally building trains here in America), the cold hard fact is that Bowser will NEVER make another steam engine, kit or otherwise, in the U.S. Parts will also no longer be stocked.

(EDIT - the parts for some of the freight cars are still molded in the U.S., but assembled in China).

To the best of my knowledge the last kits have been packed from the last parts. They are contemplating removing the few remaining sample locomotives from their store wall and only showing items they continue to produce (all of which are from China).

It is utterly foolish for anyone to even consider manufacturing steam locomotives in the U.S.

Real world money example (perhaps a couple years out of date now): Producing a fine can motor here in the U.S. would result in a retail price exceeding $20 for that can motor. You can buy fine can motors in China, in lots of 10,000 minimum, and have them shipped here to your doorstep for about $4 per can motor, delivered. Now, if you are competing against the likes of Atlas, are you going to eat $16 per engine to make the motors here in America, or are you going to buy them somewhere else?

I have all the respect in the world for Kadee, and the high quality standard of their freight cars. I sincerely wish them the best in continuing to produce them in America for as long as possible.

Die-cast engines cannot be made here. Too many environmental regulations on the casting operations, taxes on small business, benefit costs, etc. I personally made the plaster waste from lost wax brass casting (of the model train detail parts) into solid bricks by mixing it with cement so that it could be legally disposed of in Pennsylvania without being "hazardous wast

31

It could be done on a smaller scale than what a lot of people think. I, for one, am not thinking of doing it Bowser style here. The labour costs are high, yes, but so are other aspects of the dang thing.

Cottage industries don’t seem to have QUITE the same issues. The issues that do exist usually involve scale—bulk prices for parts being one. But, if one thinks that they can sell specific runs then fine. Distribution could very well be at issue as well. Go with Walthers? Horizon? Or go it alone? That type of thing.

The other issue? What business plan are we thinking of mostly nowadays? What SELLS. Problem is that we have to establish a market for the dang things. There seems to be a lack of enthusiasm for growing a market anymore. As our older RR hobbyist dies off, the market will shrink to nil. Is this where you want to go? Why bother building any sort of kit or RTR–or even RTP? Just wind the whole thing down and let MTH take care of the collector market then.

Why is there an issue with building a market up? We have a lot of competition with video games, although that market seems to be getting into some issues of its own recently. We don’t seem to have a lot of time for hobbies anymore. Too many things on the go. At least those are the reasons frequently mentioned as problems. I think that we need to ask what are we doing these things for. $$$$ making? Or for the enjoyment of it? Myself, I like mucking about with stuff like this. My work is one thing. This hobby is another thing. If I manage to pull off a modicum of steam locomotive kits then fine. I’m going at this one step at a time.

Me? Depending on what the loc

32

Gentlemen, I feel your pain.

I do not share it.

Thanks to my choice of prototype, I have a plethora of small steam to choose from - understandable when considering that my freelance 2-6-6-2T is bigger than anything ever run in the entire country. The most drivers were under a 2-10-4T (or, maybe, 4-10-2T - it was designed to run bunker forward when working hard pushing upgrade through tunnels) and the most powerful was a ‘big’ 2-8-2 (some of which gave their boilers to 4-6-4s and a few of which became 2-8-4s.) Represented on my roster and available on the market today, smaller 2-8-2s, 2-8-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-6-4Ts, 2-6-2Ts, 0-6-0Ts and a couple of 0-4-0Ts. No longer manufactured, a Baldwin-built 0-8-0T (Class of 1897) which was the only Japanese prototype model I own that was ever imported to the United States (by Max Gray in the early 1970s.)

Also avalable but not on my roster - several 4-6-4s and 4-6-2s.

I will readily admit that most of my locos were purchased, as kits, in Japan in the 1960s. The present-day prices (in yen, and, especially, in devalued US dollars) are enough to make me cringe - and take very good care of my antiques!.

The bad news is that my Japanese-prototype steam has very little commonality with US designs.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

33

Usually the people who are good at manufacturing are not all that good at salesmanship and vice versa. So therefore, the entrepeneur who is going to produce trains tends to gravitate toward the area they are good at–and perhaps other areas of the business might suffer if they don’t have people to cover those areas.

The joke within the industry, as oft-repeated by John Glaab (author of one of the Brown Book brass buyers’ guide editions) is:

“Do you want to know how to make a small fortune in the train business? Start with a large fortune.”

So far as market is concerned, yes, my friend, a store manager was very unhappy during September of 2008 when 7 of his good customers all died that month–and they aren’t always getting replaced by new customers. I do think there is still a market for certain engines that have not been done.

For instance, the B&O fans will take anything done for their road, as nothing correct is available save perhaps an item from Rivarossi and the USRA as-built 2-8-2 (which is not correct for most B&O engines as their cabs were modified for an extra chair on the left side)–But they really, really want to see the Big Six 2-10-2 more than anything else. People are begging BLI to do it. If that’s not a “market” for a product, I don’t know what is.

John

34

And this is where one falls flat on their nose a lot. Network Network Network. Find out who is good at advertising and marketing. Market research is a biggie here. What about your bookwork? Your accounting? Taxes and such? You? How do you go after your business if you spend all your time doing your books? Networking, then, is very important.

That is exactly what I’m talking about here. Determine the size of said market. In this case the market for smaller locomotives is smaller than the collector dominated large locomotive market. This smaller market can then get its needs filled through a niche manufacturer rather than one who seems to be having enough issues keeping up with its own market. Then determine what those needs are and then go from there----

35

Problem or opportunity (depending on one’s point of view):

Small niche manufacturer won’t be able to afford the tooling costs.

Tooling costs to do a quality steam engine in diecast with brass details are large.

Then you still have to buy the materials and find and train suitable labor (females are preferred for detailed final assembly due to better finger dexterity and accuracy with small parts)

That’s why BLI and others have established minimum reservation quantities–and some big time, big name engines like the beautiful Great Northern S-2 4-8-4 are apparently not enough above the minimum reservation threshold such that they are not a real high priority at this time.

That’s also why PRR stuff gets made–because there’s legions of SPF’s (slobbering Pennsy Freaks) who gobble the stuff up.

John

36

Barry,

I’ll offer an opinion about some of the questions raised here about a new manufacturer going after some of this untapped business.

Many locos could share the same drive line, example - 80% or more of the Mikados in North America shared the same driver size and spacing, and half likely had cylinders and valve gear nearly the same, now you just need a selection of different boilers and tenders - 15 or more different prototypes I would bet would be easy.

Maybe those drives could come from someone like Bachmann’s parent Kader.

I’m sure with some research most of these other wheel arrangements would be the same.

One need not completely identify every market, example, again with the Mikes. Lets say you identify 8 locos you can build on the same drive that have reasonable interest, you build the other 7 versions anyway and “create” the market by putting them out there.

Is the Bachmann 2-8-0 perfect for every roadname on it? No, but they STILL sell lots of them, after all these years, and, big mainline 2-8-0’s were not even on a lot of modelers radar until that loco came out.

Freelancers, which there are still a large number of, will buy anything that follows the looks of what they have and fits a need in their operational plan. So kits with a selection of optional details and unlettered versions would be a must.

Actually, this has already been done, but the quality/features/detail of that line have been outstripped by progress - Mantua. If you examine their product line you find a large amount of interchangable parts from loco to loco.

Marketing - The only way I see this working is to market directly to the public. This keeps costs down some (even if its only 10%) and makes the lower production number more workable. In the 1980’s when Walthers was buying every li

37

I have been in this hobby for over 40 years, have worked in serval hobby shops and managed a train department in one years ago. Sometimes I wonder if this is a self fullfilling prophecy, are there so many PRR or UP modelers because those were big railroads, or are there so many modelers because people new to the hobby see PRR and UP models available and decide that is a good choice to model since so much is available?

Would the ranks of serious B&O modelers grow if you could get afordable models of EM-1’s, Big Sixes, P7’s, and modified heavyweight passenger cars? Or, are the modelers (or potential modelers) already out there just waiting?

This is an extension of Barry’s theroy about expanding the market.

Sheldon

38

That also depends on what type of tooling you do. Or how it is done. I’m on a learning curve with cnc lasers and such. A friend of mine and I bought a small 4x4’ cnc mmilling machine from a dealer not too long ago–completely refurbished–$400. He’s using this to make parts for a 1957 Lancia Fulvia that you cannot find anymore—billit aluminum. That thing can make some small parts. I’m playing with a photoetcher right now to make small detail parts for my elevators—in N scale—lotsa fun[:-,][swg]

BTW–before you even set up any facility to do this—remember another favourite of mine—single use zoning may not permit you to do ANYTHING outside of purely residential use. There was a hoohaw over someone having a greenhouse in their back yard for pete sake[|(]. So, we had to check for whether we could even do this–thank goodness we can.[:-^] Our neighbourhood has a few independant businesses operating in home.

As for material—when I started mucking around building amplifiers I started up looking around for chassis fabricators and such—remember networking? OY. I can find out where I can get certain plastics/brass/aluminum and all manner of stuff. And at reasonable prices. Raw material costs have come down a tad recently too.

And as Sheldon already mentioned, most of us are only going on what is out there now. I found quite a few people on this forum and elsewhere who do NOT have anyone doing anything in their RR’s. Why are they no longer seen as a market?

Couple of points to ponder:

1—prophets of doom were usually warning of things that MAY happen IF, and ONLY IF, certain types of actions were to continue being done. A self fulfilling prophecy is just that. if a person keeps thinking that something is impossible then that wil

39

Uh, that is exactly what we have ended up with now: Many UP Challengers and Big Boys, and FEF’s available from more than one manufacturer without too much difficulty to find them if you look.

Sure there are some lesser known steam engines I’d like to be able to own, that would have changed my preference for which road I’m modeling–so yes, perhaps 1. is true in my particular case. But I don’t know that there are all that many modelers who choose UP or PRR just because it’s easily available–though it is true of some–my one friend has lots of PRR, NYC, B&M, B&A steam but also has UP steam including lesser known engines–not so much because it was easily obtained, but just because he loves UP steam

If a good SP 4-10-2 was readily available, I might possibly be modeling SP.

If a good Rio Grande 4-8-2 was readily available, along with the L-76 (ex-N&W Z1a/b) 2-6-6-2, I might be modeling Rio Grande.

But presently UP 4-12-2’s and other steamers are readily available, so I am buying that stuff, but still my scenery includes a Tucson scene with Saguaro desert–in the hopes that someday I’ll have an SP 4-10-2, and I might get an Athearn SP 4-8-2.

I like any Southwestern steam excepting Santa Fe, and don’t particularly care for streamlined steam.

40

That is exactly what I’m talking about here. Determine the size of said market. In this case the market for smaller locomotives is smaller than the collector dominated large locomotive market. This smaller market can then get its needs filled through a niche manufacturer rather than one who seems to be having enough issues keeping up with its own market. Then determine what those needs are and then go from there----

Barry, if you’re really serious about this, you might want to contact John Agnew in New Zealand. He’s the guy who runs Railmaster Exports in New Zealand which manufacturers Sn3 locomotive kits. That’s a small niche market if there ever was one. His email address is: john@railmaster.co.nz. He could probably provide you with some insight as to the issues you would face.

It might also be a good idea to contact DJH as they manufactured some US prototype kits in the 80’s only to give it up. DJH’s email address is: sales@djhengineering.co.uk

Railmaster’s kit list: http://www.railmaster.co.nz/railway/loco.htm

DJH website: http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/

Andre