Too bad the old Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension is not in place yet from about Garrison MT to Marengo WA…
[quote user=“CMStPnP”]
H-m-m-m-m, Mount Macdonald tunnel is 9 miles long and I don’t remember seeing trains waiting for exhaust fumes to clear…now lets examine how it ventilates and compare it to the cheap assed BNSF solution, which causes a capacity problem with the BNSF tunnel…
"The Mount Macdonald Tunnel Ventilation System allowed a major increase in the volume of traffic over Canada’s t The NOVA Award was presented to the Mount Macdonald Tunnel Ventilation System for innovation in purging long tunnels of diesel locomotive heat and gases. The Connaught Tunnel had been the Canadian Pacific Railroad’s main route through the Canadian Rockies since 1916. By the late 1980’s, however, the tunnel’s steep approaches and single track created a serious bottleneck. The decision to construct a new tunnel for westbound trains required overcoming a major obstacle: purging such a tunnel, up to nine miles long, of the heat and gases generated by trains with up to six locomotives pulling 110 heavily-loaded cars uphill. Conventional tunnel ventilation systems could not clear a tunnel fast enough to allow an economically viable flow of traffic. To answer the challenge, Sam Levy and Norman Danziger of Parsons, Brinckerhoff, Quade and Douglas segmented the tunnel into two parts to ventilate the segments separately, with a ventilation shaft near mid-tunnel. A series of gates, at this shaft and the eastern entrance, and five fans are operated by computers at Canadian Pacific Rail offices on the West Coast. When a train enters the tunnel, the eastern segment is closed and ventilated. As the train reaches mid-tunnel, the central gate opens for it to pass into the western segment, then closes when it has passed. While the train traverses the western segment, air in the eastern segment is cleaned. After the train exits, the western segment is purged. By this time, the eastern section can receive the next train. The Mount Macdonald Tunnel Ventilation System has enabled Can
As a BRK-B stock holder, I hope not! Unless the Fort Worth cafeteria needs a new sandwich artist.
Video I posted would make it seem that 25-30 MPH is max speed in the area. 7.8 miles at 30 MPH is approximately 16 minutes for the head end IN the tunnel, plus another 6 to 10 minutes for the train to clear the tunnel - depending on train size. Observation from the video, there are no sidings immediately adjacent to the tunnel - so there will be running time to the next siding in either direction. Don’t know what sort of signal spacing BNSF is using in this area - my former carrier has been respacing to 3 miles between intermediates.
30 Minutes does sound like a long time at face value, however, operational realities from other factors may make it realistic.
It’s an overblown concept that all trains require a 30-minute ventilation pause before entering Cascade Tunnel, just as it’s overblown that ventilation itself is the limiting factor to capacity there. The running time between Scenic and Berne, the sidings at either end of the tunnel, is highly impacted by the 25mph freight speed limit, and since only one train is permitted in the 7.79-mile long tunnel at a time, well, there you have it. A long, slow crawl regardless of the time needed to ventilate. Look here, page 43:
http://www.fobnr.org/timetables/bnsf/phase4/Northwest/NORTHWEST-03-042606.pdf
Some very smart people have worked with, studied, and commented on the tunnel, its ventilation, and trains operations through it. A few examples include:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1669967,1670321#1670321>;.
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,2048593
Pay close attention to the words of TAW (Thomas White) in the two links above.
Also, visit the link below, read the bottom half of page 16, and bear in mind that this WA state report and others like it were produced in whole or part by a prominent railway engineering firm whose members include a former Trains editor whom some of us remember as a very sharp individual, a walking encyclopedia of all things railroading.
http://wstc.wa.gov/Rail/TM3_RailCapcityNeedsandCnsts.pdf
To summarize from these and other sources available, ventilation time is minimal after a westbound train because it’s running downhill, and shoving ahead of it any residual exhaust from a previous eastbound. Which is why an eastbound can apparently depart Scenic and
As BNSF decides how much to invest in PNW capacity, I believe they are weighing factors such as these:
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The coal export market seemingly will not grow, given the very effective environmental opposition that has killed most proposed projects.
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The Crude-By-Rail market faces as much or more environmental opposition as coal, and the Bakken crude is rapidly gaining low-cost pipeline capacity to the Gulf.
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PNW international intermodal is under pressure from Prince Rupert; Panama Canal widening; the increased use of Suez from SE Asia to the eastern U.S; and uncertain U.S. trade policy under the Trump administration.
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Grain, while strong now, faces long-term forces such as these: World-wide production is growing rapidly; PNW ports are not as advantaged vis-à-vis the Gulf since the Panama Canal was widened; and trade policy uncertainty.
&nbs
I think your getting confused here. I used the Mount McDonald Tunnel as an example but we are really talking about a tunnel in the United States that is only 7 miles long…sooo, why would it be 4.5 mile sections? Wouldn’t it be 3.5 mile sections? And I would be willing to bet the CP ventilation system is both newer and a lot more powerful than the BNSF one.
Also, wasn’t it $500 million dollars for the tunnel and ventilation system?. I am only talking about ventilation system upgrade to increase capacity. $500 million seems kind of steep for a ventilation sustem upgrade.
Bottom line though even reading the updated links, the BNSF ventilation system is dated and I really wonder how it would fare with a passenger train breakdown in the tunnel with accompanying fire. Would like to read a report on that because I have not read yet how well the tunnel ventilates with no moving train through it and with a fire in the middle. Certainly the ventilation is not to the current standards the Swiss would build with Electric Locomotion through the tunnel. Amtrak passenger escape routes in case of breakdown and fire in the tunnel?
[quote user=“466lex”]
As BNSF decides how much to invest in PNW capacity, I believe they are weighing factors such as these:
-
The coal export market seemingly will not grow, given the very effective environmental opposition that has killed most proposed projects.
-
The Crude-By-Rail market faces as much or more environmental opposition as coal, and the Bakken crude is rapidly gaining low-cost pipeline capacity to the Gulf.
-
PNW international intermodal is under pressure from Prince Rupert; Panama Canal widening; the increased use of Suez from SE Asia to the eastern U.S; and uncertain U.S. trade policy under the Trump administration.
-
Grain, while strong now, faces long-term forces such as these: World-wide production is growing rapidly; PNW ports are not as advantaged vis-à-vis the Gulf since the Panama Canal was widened; and trade policy uncertainty.
Looks like you need some more help here. “Sandwich Artist” refers to Subway which is in the Fast Food segment. Charleys Grilled Steaks is actually in the Fast Casual market segment. Two different marketing segments there and Subway is not as efficient with food waste and not as profitable on a per sandwich basis.
As for you as an investor…
Not only did that business expand my network hugely but I got a higher paying job with a lot better benefits afterwards because I had that business start on my resume, employers are still asking about it and giving compliments (so perhaps they know more than you with investing?)…and now I have a pension to boot. I am very happy I made that choice, no regrets and no financial impact to retirement plans. All around it was win-win.[8D]
Was a challenge running a business, having employees and meeting a payroll. Highly recommend the experience. I know some people out there are afraid of challenges but it was a positive experience for me and I plan on running a business again in the future but after retirement this time so I have an income.
Thanks to all for these inputs, especially to Mike f90 for his most helpful map, and to Bruce Kelly for the track plan and his detailed description of the problem area.
The only info I have found on the BNSF’s position on Sandpoint is found in this news report, which seems accurate enough, from late 2015:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/sep/16/plans-for-second-rail-bridge-across-lake-pend/
This and the fact that plans for more double tracking are in place but on hold says that, with regard to my original question, BNSF is, or at least was a year ago, at 2-3 on my 10 point scale. ‘Well, we have plan, but right now it’s not worth it’. I find it hard to believe that the fact that there could easily be known grain traffic surges or runs of very bad weather were not taken into account in that decision, also the fact that their (and MRL/NP) access to the PNW is solely dependent on a 110 year old bridge, which a bit of help from the UP apart, there’s no way round. Someone has to decide whether this or a second bridge over the Pecos River is more important. If there are questions now about the original capacity decisions, whoever was pulling Mr Melonas’s strings must be feeing hot under the collar. I guess my question was whether there was any indication this might be the case. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Maybe from Bruce Kelly’s input there are some relatively low cost measures that
I see what you did there… Very punny!
I wonder if the half hour thing is more of a rule of thumb, given the differences in air handling for eastbound and westbound trains and the time/distance factors. In the end, it works out the same.
It’s really a rather complicated problem. All the bad air has to go somewhere, and get replaced by good air. Millions of cubic feet of air have to be moved. Adding one or more mid-shaft vents f’rinstance would require similar timing, and more of it.
People tend to underestimate air (“You propose to stop my trains with WIND?”). If we were talking a similar amount of water…
You can decrease the volume of both by cooling them both which is an innovative approach our European friends have taken with Rail Tunnel ventilation, cool the contaminated air====> move less volume.
Just occurred to me - perhaps PTC related signal upgrades might fix this sooner than later.
I think they did. The second Pecos River bridge was completed last year.
The above posts covered all of the ones I’m aware of - thanks, Bruce. The lyrics of a Johnny Cash song come to mind. I’ve always noticed that large bridge installation / replacement is left for last. [:-^] The RR capital spending plans are usually published around this time of year, so standby …
Funny you should mention signal upgrades. A now-retired BNSF official once told me that re-spacing of signals is part of the solution for one of the Northern Corridor’s other little-known challenges: Ton Per Operative Brake (TOB) rules. Under normal conditions, trains under 100 TOB may run at 60mph across most of the route, while trains 100 TOB or over are limted to 50mph. More so than BNSF’s southern Transcon, the northern line carries a high percentage of unit grain, coal, and crude trains that qualify for that 50mph limit. Which only adds to the obstacles in front of intermodals and Amtraks wanting to run much faster than that. Toss in the kind of winter conditions we’ve been having lately from eastern WA to the Dakotas and beyond, you’re now talking cold temp speed restrictions (minus ten or below on some subdivisions, not sure about the rest) where trains with less than 100 TOB are limited to 50mph and trains 100 TOB or more are limited to 40mph.
My experience with the Cascade tunnel was on an Empire Builder trip in 1968 with my family. Back in the super dome, the fumes got to my son (7 yrs old) and he got nauseated. The fumes from four 567’s working are strong when confined in the tunnel. So when it was dinner time, he wasn’t in a mood for food. Later that evening, after he recuperated and was hungry, we went to the coffe shop ranch car and he had a BLT. He claimed it was the best he ever had. Appetite can affect your mind. The sandwich looked excellent, and it smelled delicious.
The confusion lies with you. My quote was your information to Mount Mcdonald Tunnel, which is just a shade over 9 miles long. According to your quote, there is a door in the middle to clear out the fumes of half of the tunnel. Half of 9 miles is 4.5. The question is, does it take less time to clear the Mount Mcdonald tunnel, since your source, which you have not proviced a link to, did not give the amount time it takes.
While there is plenty of Bakken pipeline takeaway to the south, and potentially to the east, the lower levels of demand to the west coast are not susceptible to pipeline diversion.
It’s one of the safest niches for CBR (while Bakken production holds up.)
Perhaps the Cascade Tunnel was built with limited ventilation because it was designed for electrified rail operation.
The folks at RBN Energy had a post on exactly this topic yesterday. One of their “takeaways”:
“Risks and Opportunities
“PNW refineries continued to perform relatively well despite lower margins in 2016 because of access to advantaged crude. Looking forward there are both risks and opportunities for these refineries in the next two to three years.
“A major risk is that Bakken crude from North Dakota becomes too expensive to p
I would not be surprised if the current ventilation system had layers of dust dating from before 1968…lol[:D]