MR’s “retrospective” on influential model railraods have noted Armstrong and Ellison, and the mag articles note both used “outside third rai” for power.
In looking at the photos, it is clear they are not referring to the old cheezy Lionel 3-rail tinplate stuff, but what ARE they taling about?
Thanks in advance to anyone/everyone who will educate me on this.
I have not ever seen one close up, only in the same magazine references you mentioned. near as I can tell it’s the fence looking apparatus next to the track.
What you can’t tell from the pictures is where was the pick-up shoe on the loco.
I want to know how this worked as well.
Instead of having the 3rd rail in the middle of the track (Lionel track), the rail was instead placed on the outside of the track. Just like railroads/subways with 3rd rail operations, the model locomotives had contact shoes to pick up the power. Look at the pics again and you’ll see the 3rd rail running on the outside of the track
Like most early electric trains, the technology was not “good enough” to permit allowing power to be picked up from just two rails where one rail would be positive and the other negative… especially when it come to wyes and reverse loops and the switch frogs. To overcome the need to isolate the wheel/axles, a 3rd rail (in the middle of the track or off to the side) was used. In this setup, all of the rails in which the trains rode on were one polarity (let’s say positive) and the 3rd rail was the other polarity (negative).
Back in the “Bad old days”, guys who wanted Lionel trains to look more realistic got rid of the inner rollers and 3rd rail by using wipers on the sides of the locos that stuck out and contacted an outer 3rd rail. It was just like a subway or PRR 3rd rail (overrunning).
Paul A. Cutler III
Weather Or No Go New Haven
There is another rail that runs along-side the normal 2 rails and a ‘shoe’ slides on it to pick up the power. Many subway/commuter trains use 3rd rail, as well as the tunnel leading to Grand Central Station in NYC.
Early scale model trains used it as it was easier than insulating the drivers at the time…
Jim
Given the number of early modellers in the New York area, I’m sure the NYC electrification was a big influence. Keep in mind too that not many products were available, and many layouts were what might be called “semi-scale”, using modified Lionel equipment but with hand-laid track with the third rail moved to the outside. (When OO/HO track became available, many O scalers used that for the outside third rail.)
Lionel also made scale true scale models (NYC Hudson and Pennsy 0-6-0) which used inside third rail which modellers converted to outside 3rd rail. Lionel’s semi-scale Milwaukee Hiawatha 4-4-2 and UP M-10000 were also converted and used on many “scale” layouts…in fact many modellers used all four together, with a few American Flyer engines thrown in for good measure.
Stix, the NYC used UNDERRUNNING outside third rail (shoes contact from below,) which I have never seen modeled. The more likely influence was the NYC subway system, and even more so the older elevated lines. The subways used overrunning third rail with a protective board over the hot rail. Due to collector shoe design, the Third Avenue L (the only one still running when I was a rider) didn’t have the board. [^]
For a model view, check the photos of the Delta Lines in MR (Aug 2008). The one on page 54 clearly shows the link between the third rails on the opposite sides of the switch point in front of, “The big 4-8-2.” That locomotive appears to have a shoe (or, more accurately, rod) under the front end of the tender. [8D]
While all of the MR photos show steam, half of the Delta Lines was an ‘electric’ division, where the motive power, big third-rail box motors, was appropriately fed by the third rails. Someone once told me that Mr Ellison justified the third rail on the rest of the railroad by claiming that the management was in the process
Yes I’m aware of the ‘under-running’ third rail vs. the way modellers did it. I didn’t say the modellers of that day were all trying to model the NYC electrified lines (most of them were running steam after all), just that it seems reasonable that that is where they got the idea of moving the third rail to the outside rather than leaving it in the middle.
BTW Lionel was based in New York and many of their early engines were NYC-based electrics. Oddly enough some of Lionel’s very first items ran on two rail track, third rail came later as it allowed more complicated layouts without concern for reverse-loop short circuits.
You could get outside-rail pickup gizmos from Walthers into the 1980’s, though many modellers made their own from springy cable.
Years ago, I remember reading The Boys’ Book of Model Railroading, which described how to modify Lionel locomotives to operate on outside third rail.
A good lot of early O scale was like this, even diesels/steamers.
The NYSME O scale layout years ago had a lot of overhead for the electrics, some vandal went scrappydeliscious and wrecked it. They switched to 3rd rail.
I wouldnt want to model underrunning 3rd rail, one 5 finger hook and RRIIIPP!!!
I think most HO 3rd rail stuff is simulated which is what I will do for my CTA/North Shore.
It was NOT obtrusive but you can see it if you look hard at the Delta Lines photos. Very early HO also had outside third rail – in a sense Maerklin still has inside third rail, just studs rather than a solid rail. And in a sense traction is a third rail type system (and some traction ran literally with a small rail rather than a wire). The old O scale club in Milwaukee had third rail the first time I visited it and I hardly noticed it at all. Operation was exceptionally smooth and quiet since the engines had huge motors.
In many cases those old third rail layouts had more complete and sophisticated signals systems than most two rail layouts have today. If you read old articles by Al Kalmach he regarded realistic signaling as an integral part of what made for a realistic layout.
If you are looking at that Delta Lines article in the latest MR, notice also the stone bridge that looks like separate pieces of cut stone. That is actually a flat piece of card, painted to look like stone – Elison was a master of theatrical tricks including backdrop painting that fools the eye. It is no wonder he could disguise the outside third rail pretty well - he had a well developed sense of where the human eye tended to focus.
Dave Nelson
Thank you all for your explanations of “outside third rail power distribution.”
A follow-up question, if I may: After having read your replies, I again studied the photos of Ellison’s Delta layout, and now see a “shoe” sticking out to the side from beneath the tender. I assume the tender actually had two shoes, one sticking out of each side of the tender, as the photos show that sometimes the third rail is on the near side of the track and sometimes on the far side.
The “shoes” appear to be a solid rod – presumably copper or brass for good electrical conductivity – but I still don’t understand how they worked. If these rods were attached to a spring and pivoted out on an angle from the bottom of the tender, thus always being somewhat under tension, I would think there would have been problems when backing the locomotive, especially if/when the “shoe” encountered the start of a third rail. And if these “shoes” were solid metal rods, mounted in a fixed position and just long enough to touch that outside third rail, I would think the slight sway of the tender would cause the electrical contact to break. Furthermore, if the “shoes” were solid, then I would think the tip of the shoe would be worn down from rubbing the outside rail after but a few minutes, thus resulting lost electrical contact. Obviously the system worked – MR says Ellison and Armstrong continued using outside third rail long after it was no longer necessary – but I would like to know how.
Again, thank you all for information regarding this matter.
The ‘shoe’ design varied with the modeler. Frank Ellison used bronze (IIRC) rods, while most modelers used flattened tongue-shaped paddles. They were spring-loaded down, and the ends of the third rails were bent downward so they would pick up gradually. The shoe ends were bent upward so they could ride up on the third rail from the side at turnouts.
O gauge models were sufficiently massive that the two ounces or so of lift from a brake shoe was of no consequence (One photo caption from John Armstrong’s Canandaigua Southern mentions a, “25 pound locomotive,” presumably his T-1 styled 4-6-6-6.) HO models, being less massive, were a lot more sensitive about it - one reason why two rail power distribution was adopted as de-facto standard earlier by the smaller scale.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
When the Lionel trains went from the attic floor to a bench in the basement, the center third rail became obnoxiously apparent to us discerning modelers. Most of the large clubs, particularly in the Northeast, had solved the problem by removing the center rail and replacing it with a smaller and less otrusive outside third rail. That was the next step in model railroading evolution and resulted in a big appearance improvement. It was easy to do so since there was no need to insulate the wheels because both running rails were of the same polarity. Power was still AC from a Lionel transformer.
The pickup shoes were fabricated from a brass rod mounted on a block of Bakelite with a short section of coil spring slipped over it. Another short section of brass rod was inserted to be the pickup shoe. The third rails were tapered up at the beginning of a section so that the shoe rode up unto it with out any snagging.
Unhappy with that, I began the conversion to true two rail operation by handlaying steel rail on wooden ties and insulating the wheels. I managed to insulate the drive wheels of my Lionel Pennsy 0-6-0 Swicher by turning down the wheels with a file while running the engine upside down. The metal was a silvery white metal that machined very easily. The hard part was fabricating the new driver tires which I did by turning down some washers. I wrapped the wheels with thin vinyl sheet cut from a dictating machine record, heated the tires and slid them in place. It worked. I then had to insulate the tender wheels which was easy to do. The problem that occcurred was that I then had to insulate the rolling stock wheels as well.
World Way II and the U.S. Army Air Corps intervened so I never did finish the project but after the war I bought a two rail box cab electric kit from Parmalee and Sturgis (a NY,NH&H RR EF-1) and some box cars with insulated trucks. No more outside third rail for me.
Are you talking about cog trains here? No power on that rail, but a fascinating system.
Best!
That thing on the subway that I’m not supposed to pee on because it carries 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 volts
(haha)
Armstrong used outside 3rd rail for a couple of reasons.
He used a prototypical signaling system, which ment he needed to have the axles un-insulated to trigger the signals. According to Brian Scace, a good friend of John’s, he was very seriously considering DCC on the Canadaguia Southern!
His “Super Allegheny” was based (from what I have been told and I have seen on it) a proposal from Lima for an expanded Allegheny that was never built. It weighs a LOT, as it was mostly cast bronze, and fabricated steel for the frames. It has a huge open frame Pittman motor in it, and caould probally pull the paint off the walls!
He used what looks like “fence” near the right of way and sprung pickups to power the locomotives. The pickups appear to be the same kind of wire wrapped cables that are used to drive aotomotive speedometers!
There are a few sections of the Canadaguia Southern that survive. They are in private hands, but I got to see (and operate) on one section, that has been converted to conventional insulated DC. The owner has kept the outside 3rd rail “fences” on these sections, although they are no longer used for power pickup.
These fences can be seen in the MRR article on the CS from the Feb issue.
One more thing. A couple of years ago, the Armstrong family auctioned off most of John’s “collection” (John was NOT a collector, but an avid operator) and I was lucky enough to get several cars from the CS. Included in the cars I got was one of John’s “unit stock train” and one of his infamous Ore Jennies. (Look at the Feb issue of MR, the Ore jenny photo, the middle car is the one I have) The were set up for outside 3rd rail. I forgot this fact, and the day after the auction, was my MRR club meeting. Proud owner of Several Pieces of Hobby History just had to run them on his 2 rail layout. (Don’t get ahead of me here) Put the stockcar on the layout. Hand coupled a Weaver RS-3 on the head end
WOW! IRRC from an article by Woody Matthews, they were cast by Doc Baldwin! Do you still have that loco? Photos please!
Sorry tsgtbob, That was disposed of when I converted to HO in 1948.
It was a kit of bronze castings that had to be drilled, tapped and screwed together. It weighed a ton when assembled. I painted and lettered it for the New Haven. It had two huge K&D motors with a chain drive to the two 2 axle trucks. They also offered an EP-3 but that was a little over my means at the time
It was offered by Parmalee & Sturgis, New Haven’s premier hobby shop. O Gauge only of course. The owners were also members of the fabulous New Haven Society of Model Engineers that had a superb O gauge 3 rail layout with fabulous bridges. They got me in there once and I was hooked for life.
[:(]
Sounds like a typical kit of that era, they could be short on detail, but would pull like a Mad Dentist as well as cause brownouts on the neighborhood power grid!
I managed to get a couple of Doc Baldwin’s cars (same era) recently, and being more of a lone wolf O scaler (I’m in the boondocks of south west central Pa.) I traded them to Brian Scace who has a collection of historic O scale items from the likes of Armstrong, Bladwin, and a few others I don’t recall off the top of my head.
I have seen some of the pioneering O scalers work, it was amazing wht could be done with the materials available in that era.
One aside, the old Hagerstown MRR Club O scale layout was both outside 3rd rail, and the later 2 rail. It was featured in a 1972 issue of Model Railroader.