What signals to use?

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
1

I just finished the bench work for a 8x2.5 addition to my HO railroad. I have decided to use signals powered by an SE8C with BDL168 block detection and tortoise switch machines. This cost is going to add up. Just these three components and power supplies (I will need 7 tortoises) will be $400.

I need 8 signal heads and I can not pay $20-$30 for the Tomar/BLMA ones. The only other thing I see are very cheap ones that ship from China and take weeks to arrive.

Pare there any other options? $5-$10 per head? I am happy to make my own styrene plastic tube masts.

2

LION makes signal heads for about $1.00 each.

That signal might be a little over sized for HO scale (at least a subway signal) but it will have to do.
If your railroad requires targets, you can make these of cardboard. You can make lens shades from heat shrink tubing or even from drinking straws.

Below, the LION being too cheap to buy detectors, just wired the signals to three position switches.

OK, Now the LION has given up on building these signals because they are time intensive, and because the LION with 14 scale miles of track and more than 32 platforms to stop trains at needs hundreds of signals to make his layout look correct. Now him is working with these items from All Electronics (an MR advertiser) . Him replaces the extra green signal with yellow

3

Signalling and detection - not cheap. Fact of life.

You can certainly fabricate any sort of signal you want, there ave been articles in all the model magazines over the years. 3 color ones are the easiest, you can get LEDs in bulk. You will need resistors for the SE8C for each aspect on each head, unless you buy the Digitrax bases.

If you’re doign N scale and not HO, the Digitrax signal units (you get one with the SE8C as a testing device) can easily be dressed up to make N scale 3 color signals, and have the bonus of having the resistors plus the connector for the flat ribbon cable already there. They’re too small for HO though.

Don;t forget a computer interface, the SE8C only turns the signals on and off based on switch commands. If you want to have the signal indications change based on block occupency, you will need to interface a computer to the Loconet and use JMRI or RR&Co software to define the ‘rules’.

Team Digital has signal controlelrs that can work directly witht he block occupency sensors, no computer needed, but to program them you’ll want a computer interface and JMRI anyway, defining signal logic through the setting of CVs is pretty heady stuff, at least from looking at the TD manuals. I submit that the defining of the logic in JMRI (unless you are doing really crazy things, you cna use what the call Simple Signal Logix) is easier than trying to figure out the CVs ont eh Team Digital boards.

–Randy

4

Oregon Rail Supply sells signal heads without the LEDs. LEDs are available separately. The ORS web site doesn’t provide much info, so go to Walthers and search for Oregon Rail Supply.

This really isn’t a good picture, but you can sort of see the targets.

This is their 2-track signal bridge, which comes with a bunch of targets, more than I’ve used here. I put 3 LEDs into each of the front targets and 2 LEDs into the back. I spent a lot of time designing the wire routing, and did the wiring itself with magnet wire to hide it as well as I could.

5

It also depends on how much detail you want in your signals. I made my own for about $13 each. They had cast bases, finials, a ladder, and work platform. Brass tube and brass parts from ISS. Plastic tubing isn’t going to cut it. http://www.integratedsignalsystems.com/ You can get plastic signal heads from Oregon Rail Supply and put in your own LED’s. For wire, I used wire wrap wire I got off eBay. made a fixture so all the signals would be the same size.

So the choice is buy them already made, or make them yourself.

6

Lion: Thank you. I know of your signal system, and I think $1 is too cheap if you know what I mean. I will need to spend a LOT of time, which of course is also in short supply. I will for sure look into the other option you suggested.

Randy: I looked for the past 6 months at all the options including Team Digital and settled on Digitrax. I already have a JMRI - PR3 - Loconet connection established. That was much easier than I thought. I am also hoping that “SSL” will work out. I have not fully understood SSL.

So no 3-color heads other than the Chinese ones for about $5 then?

NP.

7

Oops replied before seeing other posts.

I am going to head over to ORS. Sounds like wire-routing will be a pain no matter what.

I learned a LOT from WaynesTrains.COM … thank you!

NP

8

There are two kinds of signals and we must not confuse the two.

First is the “HOME SIGNAL” protecting an interlocking plant. Home Signals are always controlled by a tower operator in conjunction with the alignments of the interlocking plant. Typically the indication is STOP (AND HOLD) and PROCEED (with caution) Later the Yellow aspect was added, “Advance on Diverging route” as opposed to a Green Aspect which indicated “Clear” (on this track).

On NYCT a home signals displays with two three light heads. RED over RED is STOP, and btw is never displayed with other colors…

GREEN over GREEN indicates Clear road over Normal Route (Next Block Signal is not red)

YELLOW over GREEN indicates Restricting over Normal Route (Next Block Signal may be RED)

GREEN over YELLOW indicate Clear road over Diverging Route

YELLOW over YELLOW indicates Restricting over Diverging Route.

Typically HOME signals warn the train about what will happen through the interlocking.

BLOCK SIGNALS

Typically a single head, usually with a number placard which is part of the indication. Used to protect the rear of trains in front of you moving in the same direction as you on this track.

RED (over the number placard) indicates “MOST RESTRICTIVE” prepared to stop within one halv of distance of vision.

YELLOW indicates Approach (at reduced speed)

GREEN indicates Clear (May operate at highest allowed speed)

DISCLAIMER:

LION knows that this is a simple explanation, and is probably not in accord with most modern rule books. Most modern signal aspects are complicated and indicate allowed speeds.

On NYCT:

RED = STOP AND STAY (Some locations may allow a “key-by” usually with permission of the control center)

YELLOW = Restricting, expect next signal to be RED.

GREEN = Clear, the next signal is not red (but it may be yellow).

There are some s

9

Thanks. My first goal s to obtain approval to spend $500 or surreptitiously spend it when wife isn’t looking. My second goal is to hook up a couple signals with the Simple Signal Logic in JMRI. Then, I am going to define my own aspect rule book. It will have a lot of flashing lights because I like flashing lights.

My thoughts are the signals will be interlocked with the points, and I will somehow need to set “direction” on each block section of the singe track mainline between sidings so that signal heads in both directions won’t get a green.

I am already worried SSL won’t cover it, but I want to take baby steps. The first idea then is to acquire a SE8C and 12-pack of tortoises. I have never wired a turnout for DCC!

Now the question is, how to obtain all this without upsetting the madam. Maybe I should get my taxes done first.

NP.

10

Signals connected to switch points are HOME SIGNALS. They do not need detectors as they are operated by the tower operator (be he live or computer, or just a tap on a Tortoise).

Again, the direction of trains is also controlled by the HOME signals. (Tower, CTC operator, etc)

Block signals only protect your train from running into the train in front of you headed in the same direction as you are. These are the only ones you need block detection for.

Yes if the block is occupied by a train headed right at you, the signal will also be red. The signal does not really care which way the trains are going. But shame on the tower operator that allowed you to go onto the same track with opposing traffic.

Sometimes wayside signals are controlled by CTC to instruct a train to take a siding or to hold the main line for opposing traffic.

This is why I asked what kind of signals you wanted to use.

LION has nine miles of track (on the Broadway Local track) with trains only three minutes apart. Signals must keep trains stopped in stations until the next station is clear to receive a train.

Railroad of LION has no throttles, block controls, reversing switches or other minutiae of model railroading. Railroad is AUTOMATIC. LION gets to WATCH the trains and does not have to drive them.

Believe me, a 20 minute run on my Broadway Local is just as boring as doing it in New York City.

LION operates TOWER, the heck with the trains. They can run by themselves.

ROAR

11

I think I still need detection for home signals. For example if I have a crossover entering into a station and it is set for a thru route. Then I need to give a line Green based on the logic of Crossover = closed and Block = Empty.

Your layout is pretty awesome. Amazing to see how much you have done with how little. I saw your Analog detection method in another post and it’s pretty amazing. Somehow though JMRI panels are attracting me. Say, do you plan to cut power to a small length before a RED, and drop track voltage for the section before?

I think about more automation all the time, but I think for me its important to do learn-build-learn-build as this is my first real layout. (my first non-real layout was a short lived 8x4). My three year old handles everything and wants to DRIVE so progress is really slow as 1/2 the time I am throwing switches for him.

I think I am heading to eBay for that SE8C now.

12

One tip I’ll pass along from wiring the signal bridge:

If you are going to have two LEDs driven from the same source, particularly if they are different colors or different sizes, wire them in series, not in parallel. I spent weeks figuring out why my signal lights weren’t all coming on. When you wire dissimilar LEDs in parallel, one of them will take all the current, leaving the other dark. Series wiring forces all the current through both LEDs.

13

If by SSL you mean Simple Signal Logic as used by JMRI, it WILL do what you want. That is what I am using and it does what I want. It will link the ABS together with turnout direction to become CTC.

You are on the right track when you say you want to set up a test using a couple of signals. Also throw in a DS-64 for the test, or you can use the SE8C for turnout control if using Tortoises.

(Wayne)

14

They are two separate signals. The Lower signal head (on NYCT) indicates the position of the switch (normal or diverting), the Upper signal head displays the condition of the block: Red = occupied, Yellow = Next block is red or green=next block is not red.

If one red is displayed, then both show red.

Now think it through a little more: suppose you have a single track station and there is a switch before it, so that the train facing you in the station will be taking a different route out. Obviously it cannot approach on your track because you are there. The station switch would be thrown against you and that will display a red home aspect.

If that train is going in the same direction as you, ergo it arrived off of the diverting track, then that switch would remain aligned for him until he cleared the station. Once he is gone, the tower operator will align the track for your movement, and you would receive a green signal.

This is why the LION cannot see that you need a block signal protecting such a station. If it were but a single track with no switches, then it would not be a home signal, it would be a block signal.

In any even: It is a MODEL, and you do have the LICENSE to keep things a little on the simple side, unless of course your goal is to make a detailed model of a specific prototype of the signal system. But then you will be spending more money than the LION sees in a whole year of hobby building, including his annual vacation to Pennsylvania. [My parents just turned 90 and so I will visit them while they are alive, and can visit Rome (or wherever) another time.

ROAR