I’m curious whether Casey used 2-8-0 638 on fast passenger trains. It seems unlikely, but I don’t suppose we’ll ever know.
Tom
ACY, I don’t think Mr. Jones had a choice as to what locomotive he used to pull what ever train he was assigned to. #382 was the loco assigned to the passenger train that the accident occured with, sort of showing it was above his pay grade to make such choices.
Engines were still assigned to specific engine crews back then. Engine 382 was Jones’ assigned engine at that time. From the accounts I’ve read (Treasury of Railroad Folklore, for one) says he agreed to “double out” (because the regular engine crew wasn’t available due to illness) if they were able to take their regular engine. That is what was done. The 382 was turned and serviced in time to go on the train.
Casey Jones had to give up the 638 when he transferred from freight service to passenger service in January 1900.
Jeff
From what I’ve read, Jones still ran freight and #638 was his regular engine. He was also running passenger at the time and when the opportunity to take the passenger train came up, after he had already put in his day on freight, he took the work. I don’t think we know if he had ever run #382 before.
I think the truth be told, everything known about the wreak, might be subject to interpretation. Casey’s story is a great story! However, we may not have known anything about him had it not been for the fact a song about him was written, 6-8 wheeler and all!
Think what you want.
The article in “A Treasury of Railroad Folklore” about Casey Jones was taken from the book, “Main Line of Mid-America, The Story of the Illinois Central.”
When he ran freight, his runs were out of Jackson, TN to Water Valley, MS. In January of 1900 he transferred into passenger service. To do this, he had to move to Memphis, TN and his run was from their to Canton, MS. He also had to leave the 638 behind.
All accounts I’ve seen in print have engine 382 has his engine at the time of the collision. He had a special, distinctive whistle made for his assigned engine. It seems the whistle still exists, but may be in private hands. I’ve seen reference to that and that it’s in the musuem in Jackson, TN.
While looking through some stuff on the internet, I did find someone who said engine 384 was his regular engine on passenger trains. That 382 was used because 384 couldn’t be serviced in time. While I could see that being the case, all other accounts, including ones from his fireman Simm Webb (albeit years later) say they turned his regular engine in time to use it.
In any case, he hadn’t been on 638 in a few months on April 30, 1900.
Jeff
Great! You seem to know more about this story than the other people I have read who have told Casey’s story. I really don’t particularly care about the details of what engines he was assigned to; or, when that took place, nor have I attempted to aspouse I know much about this! I was only interested in whether the description “6-8 wheeler” was a proper description of #382 which was a 10 Wheeler!
Just read Wikapedia’s infromation on Casey Jones. They point out that there is some controversy where there is three accounts of how it was that Casey ended up taking the train that was involved in the wreck.
My pet theory - since “8 wheeler” was common for a 4-4-0, also known as an American Standard (the Standard part tends to get dropped, but int he full Whyte classification list it’s there)…
that makes a 6-8 wheeler a standard loco with 6 drivers.
A slight alternate, brought up because of reading a discussion on Hank Snow’s classic song “Movin On” (best done by Emmylou, but I digress) about the line “big 8 wheeler”. It would seem that at the time, not too many railroads would have still been using 4-4-0’s on fast passenger trains. Some speculated that it meant 8 drive wheels, like a 4-8-4 (Dixie to the Southerners). My idea here is more that “8 wheeler” became more of a generic slang term for a crack passenger engine. Thus once again, 6-8 wheeler meaning a 6 drivered fast passenger engine.
–Randy
Some odds and ends…
The best source for the ‘real story’ is the April 2000 Trains magazine, which did a cover story on the 100th anniversary of the wreck. It explained exactly what happened, and debunked a lot of myths regarding the events. According to that, the 2-8-0 Casey is in the cab of in my earlier post was his assigned engine, but he used the 4-6-0 to haul the passenger train that crashed.
Hank Snow wasn’t a railroader. He had been a cabin boy at sea, and then became “The Singing Ranger” in Canada in the 1930’s. When he wrote “I’m Movin’ On” (and recorded the definitive version) in 1950, the standard passenger steam engine on top of the line trains for 15-20 years were 4-8-4 or 4-8-2s. I suspect his reference to an “eight wheeler” was referring to eight driving wheels. Perhaps he had heard the term ‘eight wheeler’ and assumed it meant driving wheels. There are plenty of songs about railroading and industry written by people who only had limited information on what they were writing about - like “The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald” describing the ore boat loading in Superior, Wisconsin with taconite from Minnesota’s Mesabi range as “a load of iron ore from a mill in Wisconsin(??)”
It’s important to understand that Wallace Saunders neither recorded nor published a version of the song Casey Jones. In fact, I seem to recall he was illiterate?? He made up the song, based partly on an existing railroad-related song, and it became a ‘folk song’ that people heard and added to until finally it was published and recorded by other people - who knew little if anything about railroading.
I never had a problem with the Edmond Fitzgerald song as I thought the vessel had loaded at Superior Wisconsin. I’m not going to dig out my book on the E.Fitz and prove that point, as we’re moving in yet another unrelated direction to the thrust of this thread.
I really think that if “6-8 Wheeler” is not something plainly known; or, was plainly known, everything we say about it is just pure conjecture!
The Edmund Fitzgerald was loaded at the BN ore docks in Superior WI. The problem is the line that said it had a load of iron ore that came “from a mill in Wisconsin”.
It was loaded with taconite pellets, not raw ore. The taconite pellets came from a taconite processing plant, not a “mill”. The taconite plant was located on the Mesabi Range in NE Minnesota, not in Wisconsin.
To me, Gordon Lightfoot’s song; “The Wreak of the Edmond Fitzgerald” is one of the most hauntingly beautiful songs ever written. So, I’m not about to let an inaccuracy such as you mention, bother me! The song pays tribute to all seafarers everywhere and homage to the 29 soles lost that night! You want to get hung-up over this, then be my guest.
If you’re looking for documentable fact, don’t look to folk songs. A good folk singer or a good teller of tall tales never lets the facts get in the way of a good story, expressed well. Does anybody really think Harry McClintock’s “Big Rock Candy Mountain” was a documentary or a reliable travelogue?
Tom
Tom, Totally agree with you! Lightfoot is a great seafarer’s story teller as well as stories about other of life’s lessons and hardships. He loses zero points from my perspective as far as inaccuracies in the stories he tells, as I have never looked a song lyrics as needing to be absolutely factual. The Ballad of Casey Jones, is another that really doesn’t lose anything for the inclusion of the words; 6-8 wheeler in the lyrics. Although I am foolish enough to think I might know a few things about railroads. I also wondered if “6-8 wheeler” was a legitimate description of a locomotive, hence this thread. I’m also fascinated by the fact that people have thought enough about these words in that song to feel they need to explain what they mean!
Hi! Yes, Wallace Saunders was the original writer, of the song “Ballad of Casey Jones.” He had only written it, as a memorial, to Casey, since Wallace had admired him so much. Apparently Wallace never intended for the song to be published, so he never got it Copyrighted. He was heard singing “his version” at the Station, when William Leighton heard him singing it. William took it, and gave it to his 2 brothers, who were in a Vaudeville Act. They, then, went around the country, singing it. They never got the song Copyrighted, either. It finally wound up, in the hands of T. Lawrence Siebert, (he was credited with writing the song,) and Eddie Newton, (who was credited with the Music.). Of course, Siebert changed the Lyrics and added the ending where it claims that Janie Jones (Casey’s Wife) had been cheating on him, which wasn’t true. It’s said that all Wallace got, for his song, was a bottle of Whiskey. How sad.
Also, here is the original song, as it was written by Wallace Saunders:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/genius.com/amp/Wallace-saunders-the-ballad-of-casey-jones-lyrics
Sent from my iPhone
That’s right, and I wasn’t knocking the song Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, just pointing out popular songs (and movies) aren’t necessarily 100% historically accurate.
I read a long time ago that in Canada - at least at one time - an engine with six drivers and an eight-wheel tender would have been called a “6-8” engine. Since the song most likely existed for many years being passed from singer to singer until it was published, could be someone misheard a few words or just substituted the “6-8 wheeler”.
p.s. Never heard “big eight wheeler” being used as a generic term for a passenger engine. I still go with my earlier assumption, that Hank Snow wrote “I’m Movin’ On” at a time when many top passenger trains were hauled by 4-8-4 engines, and heard t
Taconite pellet plant is not euphonic.
A fellow I worked with had worked previously in a taconite processing plant. There were dozens of “ball mills” in there to hammer the ore. Hence I suppose it could be called a taconite mill?
https://digital.hagley.org/1986268_1_0022
Regards, Ed
Did I just get sucked into a 3 year old thread? [B)]
Any harm in that? [:-^]
PS [#welcome] RainingStars, nice cat!
Ed