What will it take for a manufacturer to do it right? [:(!]
Just read the threads.
BLI needs a chip upgrade so they can go slow!
Atherns Genesis needs a decoder so they work!
Soundtraxx needs a booster to program properly and the the Chuff is not correct for the XYZ engine!
We, you and I, are paying a ton of money to get a Quality product. BUT what we get is a product that needs to be upgraded faster than our computers.
Let us look at one NEW product as an example. Athearns Genesis Big Boy. Out of the box it needs HELP. One thread tells about it going off line and having to be reset, but how? Another thread tells us that it can be programmed in the DARK since it can not readback what is on it already. Gee, $303.00 for the loco that needs an operation of a NEW DECODER so it will work like we thought it should when we bought it.
Sorry folks but this is getting a little out of hand. In the old days if you bought the best and paid good money you got a product worthy of the cost. Now it is good luck and thanks for your money.
What you used to buy was several orders of magnitude simpler than what you get today. Of course there were fewer problems.
My BLI steam all runs very good at slow speeds - no chip upgrades done. But if you don’t like BLI’s slow speed operation, you can always go back to plain Bachmann (NOT Spectrum) steam and see how it suits your fancy. Or maybe Rivarossi, or Tyco (Mantua). They were the main steam locos available before the current crop of BLI, Spectrum, P2K Heritage, etc. Of course, you could sometimes find excellent performance in brass - SOMETIMES. But in current-year dollars you’d be shelling out a grand or more per loco. Maybe my BLI’s would run better with the chip upgrade, but they’re no slouches in the running department now.
If a decoder won’t read back because it takes more power to read it than the DCC system provides for that purpose, then why not just trash the whole loco? After all, that makes more sense than spending 25-30 bucks buying a booster circuit that DOES allow the DCC system ro read the decoder, doesn’t it? This little “flaw” pops up because when most basic design of DCC systems was done, the increase in complexity of the decoders themselves was unanticipated. At least some system suppliers are in the process of fixing this issue.
If you want to go back to DC with it’s block control and its ability to run only one train in a block at a time, you can make many of these problems go away. But if you want to easily run multi-unit lash-ups, or not install miles of wiring on your 6X10 layout, or even to arrange cornfield meets with your trains, you’ll have to accept that there are orders of magnitude increases in the complexity of your equipment, and that sometimes that complexity results in failures that cannot be forseen, or sometimes even diagnosed.
“Cadillac price for a VW bug?” I disagree. Despite all the headaches that this high-tech modeling gear can bring, I think it’s more like a VW price for the Starship Enterprise!
Wow, I remember those. I had an office-mate who absolutely loved his Yugo. One day, he came into work about lunchtime. Seems he went out to the parking lot that morning, unlocked the door, pulled on the handle, and the door fell completely off the car.
The kicker was, he still loved that car. Oh, and did I mention that he had a Ph.D? Yeah, they don’t make those like they used to, either.
Touching on what Brunton mentioned I have to agree, simpler is easier. More electronics and components mean more chances for something to break.
A short story:
My first experience with this theory was way back in the summer of 1987 I was working as a chief steward on a research vessel off the coast of . This boat was an old Louisiana oil patch crew boat converted into a USGS NOAA research vessel with an A frame and a two man submersible for conducting research. This boat had all the necessary tools, communications, etc… all retro fitted for the type of work they were doing.
We met up with an RV the Seward Johnson and it’s sub the Johnson Sealink, this vessel was built just for research and it had all the bells and whistles, satellite communications, navcom, Loran, other special radars, a complete video mixing room, bow and stern power thrusters, etc…
I was preparing the evening meal and our engineer was enjoying a cup of coffee in the kitchen and we were talking. He was the “go to” fix it man on the boat. I mentioned to him how impressed I was with all the fancy equipment on the Johnson Sealink, I was young and green then. His short and sweet simple response to my comment was, “….that is just more stuff than can break down. Keep it simple and stupid.”
It was like a light bulb that went off! Wow, he was right, just more stuff that can break and has to get fixed. I had never thought of it that way until he said that.
I’m looking at a product review in MR for an HO Proto2000 EMD GP20. The DC only version costs $125! A few years back, a top of the line Athearn GP would cost you less than $50 - you could get a Kato GP for about $75.
If you add DCC to the Proto 2K GP the price soars to over $220! This despite the fact that the typical DCC decoder runs only about $50 retail.
And lets not even talk about steam…
I don’t mind (too much) paying through the nose to get the latest “new technology” locomotives, but I DO expect it to work as advertised. If it doesn’t, I expect it to be fixed with a minimum of fuss by people who understand that their business success depends on our patronage.
I HAVE purchased the Soundtraxx Booster and HAVE purchased all the top of the line parts and pieces from Digitrax and HAVE read all the information on what I was paying for. The problem still exisits that the manufacturer MUST understand that there are many brands of DCC equipment that ALL MUST conform 100% to NMRA Standards. Digitrax, and NCE decoders are NEVER a problem they work as the instructions say after you install them. MRC decoders area 50/50 guess at best.
I understand the complexity of an item that will break because they are so many parts: See picture:
This breaks it is $65,000.00 to replace the motor and $30,000.00 for a tune-up and $2,500.00 or an oil change.
Break that down to what I REALY do:
Rebuild the enigine if required $15,000.00. Major Tune-up $1,600.00 in parts, Oil chnage 48 quarts of Mobil one and a $65.00 filter.
This is tha same as what we are paying for the products against what we are getting for the money. I own a business and make a good profit on what I make and sell. If a client says they have a problem we FIX IT not put out the same problem with a better label (Challenger then the Big Boy).
I have a somewhat similar complaint. I’ve been in the hobby for a couple of years and have made bought a DCC system and 6 engines with sound; all top of the line products. Yet of the these 7 products, I have had problems 4 of them that are related to quality of manufacture:
Digitrax Super Chief System: Wireless function did not work; throttle had to be returned and recalibrated.
Proto 2000 2-8-8-2: Internal wiring failed after a few months; locomotive had to be sent in for service.
BLI Switcher: Front truck wiring is too tight so that it derails constantly on track that everything else runs fine on.
BLI E-6: Stalls on unpowered frogs despite being a long wheelbase engine.
While all of these problems can be corrected through repairs, tinkering, etc.; that’s a big waste of my time which could be spent on aspects of the hobby that I enjoy. It really is unacceptable to have this high a failure rate out of the box for very expensive products, especially when the service and support available can take forever (Digitrax was pretty responsive but Walthers took 6 months to repair the 2-8-8-2).
I’m looking at a product review in MR for an HO Proto2000 EMD GP20. The DC only version costs $125! A few years back, a top of the line Athearn GP would cost you less than $50 - you could get a Kato GP for about $75.
Yeah, and 30 years ago, I got a brand new Toyota Corolla SR5 liftback for $4500 out the door. So what?
In the late 50’s (say 1957), Varney sold its 4-6-0 “Casey Jones” kit for $22.00 and it did not include valve gear. Allowing for inflation, that kit would sell for over $150 today. Bowser sells essentially the same kit (except that valve gear is included now) at an MSRP of $114.95.
I bought my first Athearn 40’ boxcar kit in 1957 for $1.29. Adjusting for inflation, that’s $8.97 in today’s dollars. Athearn’s got 'em listed at $7.75.
When Athearn was making the old rubber-band drive F-7, they sold for $6.95. That’s about $48 in today’s dollars. However, the didn’t run worth [censored] and the truck sideframes looked like crude lumps of metal. A current Athearn BB F-7 has an MSRP of $39.50. It has a decent mechanism and is geared and the side frames are light years ahead in detail compared to their 50 year old counterparts.
IIRC, a Mantua Pacific kit (before they cheapened it and went to the small motor w/o the gear box) sold for $24.95 back in the day. That’s a bit over $170 in today’s dollars. You can’t buy a Mantua kit today, at least not one that’s current production. The closest comparable currently available model to the old Mantua would be the Bowser K-4 kit at $124.95 (superdetailed kit at $239.95). The USRA light 4-6-2 kit by Bowser is actually a screaming bargain in comparison at $158.95 with all the superdetails included.
'Course, I am comparing apples to oranges here since I’m comparing kits to a ready to run item (the P2K GP-20). Assuming you could get one back in 1960, the equivalent price would be around $18.65. An Athearn GP-9 sold for $11.95 back then if memory serves, but you had to instal
Sorry folks but this is getting a little out of hand. In the old days if you bought the best and paid good money you got a product worthy of the cost. Now it is good luck and thanks for your money.
Is it? Or is it more the case that people will make their complaints public (now that we have the Internet), but won’t expend the same effort when the product actually is pretty darned good.
I only have 1 BLI loco (Santa Fe #3751). Yeah, I had a few problems with it at the beginning, but I figured it was because I had to learn some new things given that that it was the first sound equipped loco I ever owned. Now that I’ve figured it out, the thing runs fine, I’ve got the sound turned down to an acceptable level and it runs very well at slow speeds.
There appears (to me at least) that there is an attitude that everything should be perfect out of the box with no effort (intellectual or otherwise) required of the end user. IOW, the product should anticipate your every desire so that you have to make no effort whatsoever to determine if something is actually wrong with the item or if it is actually performing within specs.
I have a great deal of difficulty mustering up any sympathy when it appears to me that people don’t take the time to find out how something actually works before complaining about it. It’s as if we’re getting to the point where most people will get on their cellphones to call AAA rather than change their own tires.
Yep yep yep. Thread after thread complaing about the sound and DCC with all of the problems. Now ask the question again why small train shops are hesitant to carry these products…
Tell me again how small train shops that don’t carry DCC are going out of business because we are refusing to sell stuff that either isn’t up to our quality standards or people can’t figure out how to work items properly…and/or never read an instruction booklet.
I agree with some of you guys. I’m not stocking this stuff anymore. Let someone else take the risk.
Did you ever hear of a DEBATE about a problem? We do that all the time when we hear about something that is not correct. It is a good business practice to stay up on your customers problems. That is why I have a Yahoo group for my customers. Good or bad I hear it. Just like this I have posted about how good some things are: Digitrax, Rail-ops, Loconet-USB, the Spectrum engines and the Mike and Cab forward from BLI and I feel that the negatives need to be out so someone who does not have th funds or the know how can make a better choice as to what they should or should not buy.<
That is a smart choice. I no longer accept orders for colors for some cars because the leather is so cheap and just can not be restored no matter what. That is why we are still in business we see the problem and avoid it. If I had an LHS and a degree in electronics THEN I would carry DCC.
This is the gripe. If you buy a loco, put it on the track and it does not do you what you want and you DID NOT follow the directions and undertand the DCC you are using then that is your problem. BUT when you follow to the letter what your DCC and the loco MFG tells you to do THEN that is THEIR PROBLEM which is now our problem.
All of which is a good argument for buying your items from your local hobbyshop (assuming that it’s well run with knowledgeable people) rather than via the Internet. If it ain’t up to snuff when it’s being displayed, I’ll ask to see another sample. Two bad ones in a row and it doesn’t get bought, period.
I don’t buy much over the 'net. After calculating price, plus shipping plus a fudge factor for getting a lemon, it’s usually cheaper to go to the LHS (in my case - The Train Shop in Santa Clara, CA, although it’s 75 miles from my house). What I will buy over the 'net are old items that I know will need working on.
As for following to the letter the instructions, that’s where real trouble-shooting starts, not where it ends. It may very well be that the mfg. is at fault. However, it’s more than likely the mfg. will send you a new item rather than spend money on fixing the original and you can end up with the same problem or a worse one.
I’m absolutely astounded that there are so many complaints about various products, I’ve only had to return a hobby item once. Otherwise, I’ve been pretty happy with all my purchases.
I have to disagree, Andre. I have made all but one purchase using internet. I paid something like $590 Canadian for a BLI Hudson in Jan '05 'cuz I was green (read “ignorant”) at the same LHS where I do most of my local browsing, mostly for track, turnouts, kits, scenery materials, etc. I can get that same loco drawing power on my layout for about Cdn $200 from trainworld.com., all up. If it came to a defective one, I would simply return it to BLI
