Why go and get a brass engine? Are they so much better than plastic that it’s really worth more than double to cost? I’m not slamming brass here. I just would like to know what drives you toward brass. Is it all in the detailing? Are they better runners? More specific to your roadname? Any or all of the above? Jay
Well, this may wind up being an interesting topic! For me my brass purchases were to acquire locos that were not “mainstream” and were not likely to be done in plastic. And, there was a time that brass was much better detailed, including roadname specific details. But the way plastic models are going the need (for me) to look toward brass is lessening, if not gone completely. We’re seeing some locos in plastic we never would have dreamed of 10 years ago, and we’re getting them nicely detailed. As far as running qualities brass isn’t always that great a runner, I’ve got a couple of real duds that I wound up repowering.
-
There are dozens of engines you cannot get any other way.
-
They are much better detailed. Even the newest plastic and die cast are only " almost as nice".
-
I don’t think they are better runners these days and after you put sound and a DCC decoder in them, they are not easier.
But ther are still the only way to get some great steam models.
Anybody remember those brass Pacific Fast Mail advertisements in Model Railroader? …many of which were made with “lost wax” molds, imported from Pacific-Rim countries? …always expensive and with good reason? The detail was astonishing whether seen in a photograph or in person.
To me certain brass manufacturers engines will outlast any of the plastic ones and they will pull more without resorting to traction tires, along with railroad specific details.
If you want I will compare my Key NYC J3a details against the MTH one any day and the Key locomotive will be better.
Rick
This is about the 50th topic about “WHY BUY BRASS”. Do a search. There is about 50 yes & no answers to your topic. Brass is better & plastic is better for tons of questions.
Mike
Sparkyjay:
Good question, one that seems to be more frequently asked these days, what with the high-quality detailing of some of the newer plastic steamers.
In my case, except for two locomotives, it’s the only way I can get steam for the railroad that I model–the Rio Grande standard gauge. The two non-brass Rio Grande locos that I have are the Proto2000 USRA 2-8-8-2 Rio Grande L-107 clone, and while it is a beautiful locomotive, a smooth runner and exquisitely detailed, it doesn’t have near the pulling power of my Oriental Limited brass model of the same locomotive. However, it’s a great ‘helper’ locomotive (which was basically what the prototype was used for) and looks GREAT!
The other non-brass Rio Grande loco is the L-97 4-6-6-4 which is an almost exact copy of the Union Pacific Challenger. Rio Grande was assigned these locos late in WWII, didn’t like them at all and sold them as fast as they could. Mine’s a very powerful Genesis loco, but unforunately, since my MR is DC, and the loco is dual-mode DC/DCC, I can’t run it with any of my other locos, so it sees very limited usage on my railroad (somewhat like the use the prototypes saw on the real Rio Grande, LOL!).
However, since those are the only two non-brass Rio Grande prototypes, and the Rio Grande is my favorite railroad, it’s pretty necessary that I go brass for the other prototypes. Over the years, I’ve collected a fairly large (around 50) brass Rio Grande prototypes. Some of them have run magnificently straight out of the box, others have had to be worked on a bit, ALL of them occasionally take some ‘tinkering’ if they’ve been run a lot (what the heck, so did the prototypes!). Just about all of them have been re-weighted or re-balanced at one time or another, and just about all of them are capable of handling almost as many cars as the
Tom has provided a cogent response. Lucky for you all, because I thought the question was rather naive…Perhaps I’ve been in this hobby too long.
Mark
Brass has always been about beautiful detail. Running characteristics were another story. Years ago they were DC controlled if ever run at all.
I was very naive about brass many years ago. I was invited to see a layout at a modelers home. The HO scale layout was awesome. I saw a freight train that had great looking detailed rolling stock pulled by an unpainted brass locomotive. I made the big mistake of asking why the loco could not be painted a nice color. I was almost asked to leave because of an insulting question. His attention to prototype detail ended at painting brass. You never ask why it is not painted I was told. I was never invited back.
Rich
Todays high quality plastic deisels, with all their etched metal parts and prototype specific details, beat brass IMO. There are things that just can’t be done in brass as well as it can in plastic. Things like the nose contours of an F unit or the EMD knuckle buster door handles for example. The only way I would buy a brass deisel would be if it wasn’t available in a quality plastic model.
Brass steam on the other hand is fanominal and still beats anything that has been brought out in plastic or die cast. Besides the fact that for someone like me who likes CB&Q steam , brass is the only option.
Rich, then that guy was a Snobbish brass owner to act that way. Its been said the guys that leave brass in its unpainted state, do so that others will know they can afford brass. I usualy have 1 or two engines I leave in thier natural state, they do look pretty that way. But most get painted, either by me or my custom painter into thier proper road name. To me a finely painted and weathered brass engine is as beautifull as the unpainted one. Espicaly if it runs smooth, has a nice working headlight and pulls well. From a newbie to the brass world, that question wouldnt be insulting, but a chance to explain why I might choose to leave the model in that state. Not to be an arrogant arse about it. Brass is a love it or hate it relationship. One must be either deep pocketed to buy it and pay someone else to get it to run good and maybe paint it. Or your a tinker like myself and others and take immese joy in watching a smooth running brass engine that you spent many hours tuning, balancing and weighting to run and pull well. The wonderfull comments that follow from fellow modelers are another side benefit. Mike
Given my prototype, and the time I was gathering my roster, I had two basic choices; brass and fugheddaboudit. Since I couldn’t run a railroad with ‘fugheddaboudit,’ I bought brass:
-
In Japan.
-
In kit form.
-
Mostly from manufacturers working out of storefronts and hobby shops the size of my living room.
Several decades later, some (but not all) of the manufacturers are producing and selling slightly better kits (can motors instead of open-frame) at five times the price in Yen (and, if I want one, 20 times the price I once paid, plus shipping and customs.) A very few have been offered in plastic - they aren’t quite as well detailed and don’t have the weight of their older brethren.
Once locomotives are painted, weathered and placed in service, who knows, or cares, what material they’re made of? My only concern is whether that D51 class mike can clear the upgrade before #11 is scheduled to use it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with brass, Zamac and, gasp! steel locomotives)
Like others have said in some cases it’s pretty much the only way to acquire some models that will probably never see the light of day as plastic kits. This is usually true of obscure roadnames or engines and freight cars that were either one off or only owned by one railroad. Also for a long time brass imports were much better detailed and usually more closely resembled specific prototype models than plastic kits.
Since steam locomotives have little in common if one really looks into it, the handful of available non-brass locomotives covers maybe one-thousandths-of-a-percent of the prototype. So, it isn’t the obscure that isn’t modeled in non-brass, but virtually all steam isn’t modeled in non-brass.
Mark
I like the way brass looks. Granted, today’s plastic models are darned good, but there are still a few tip-offs that they are plastic. That’s one reason I like brass.
For me, they are also something I admired as a kid. I was in high-school and college in the '70s and I’d look at the brass models in the hobby shop display cases and admire the models in the PFM/United/Tenshodo/NWSL ads. I wanted them so bad I could taste it, but for me, $75 (the price at the time) for a brass shay was way out of reach; I promised myself that someday I’d own such fine models. I’m in my 50s now, and someday has arrived. I buy them used and do whatever repairs/upgrades are needed to make them run as good as they look.
I also enjoy tinkering. To me, the fine-tuning that brass models typically require is part of the fun. Simply taking a model out of the box and putting it on the track is leaving out an important part of the hobby - me. I like to be more engaged with my models.
Regarding painting them. I’d love to do it, but I’m not sure enough of my skills so they run bare right now. Someday, they’ll all be properly painted, lettered, and weathered. In the meantime, I’m not insulted if someone asks why they’re not painted - I’ll answer them straight up - the painter is still honing his skills.
I have one model that is a display case “queen” - It’s an NWSL 0-6-0 that was once owned by Linn Westcott. I keep it like my autographed baseballs - it represents more to me than the fine model that it is; it’s a connection to someone I admire.
OK. Can someone tell me when a non-brass HO-scale model of a Dick-Truesdale-freelance-oil-fueled version of a prototype duplex 2-8-2+2-8-0 will be available? (Geez, they even haven’t come up with a D&SL 2-6-6-0 for goodness sake!)
I don’t own any brass locos or plan to own any, but here is my take on them.
First, I think brass is good for steam modelers because they are models of railway-specific prototypes, not the run of the mill USRA designs that many plastic locos are patterned after. And appearance-wise, most brass steam locos I’ve seen generally look good.
Second, brass diesels are fine so long as they are made from the 1980s on up to the present day. A lot of the stuff made from the 1970s on back looks like tinplate, and if I had the money to blow on brass I wouldn’t even look at the junk made by Tenshodo, KMT, and other early manufacturers of brass diesels.
And finally, newer brass locos are obviously better in terms of performance and detail, and currently importers such as Overland Models offer locos that are nicely painted and are offered in several paint schemes for the railways they are supposed to represent. If I were to buy a brass loco for running on a layout, I’d want something that is already painted.
Thank you all, especially you Tom, for your answers. ANd you too Mark for stopping your “naive” comment where you did. I use the forum as a learning tool and find most of you out there kind and ready to help the new age of modelers. Thanks again, Jay
Like shayfan, I also admired PFM ads in Model Railroader in the early 80’s as a kid, then in the mid 90’s as a modeler in my early 20’s and poor in the pocketbook. Espicaly the shays and mid size steam. Eventualy I owned several shays but ended up selling them to cover bills during a long job layoff after moving to Erie PA and getting married. Now I am rebuilding my brass engine selection. I encourage every modeler, espicaly ones into steam engines, to get atleast 1 brass model in their lifetime. They really are an joy to own. As far as shays go, the Bachmann one is nice, but still doesnt run as well as a PFM/United one from the 60’s or 70’s can with a couple minor tune ups. With 8 wheel pickup, hard wiring the ground instead of relying on the ground thru the bolster screw and a good clean/regrease and they run better than the bachmann one. And that is with the original open frame motor in them. Brass once was and still is expensive, espicaly new brass today. But a good used model is well within the reach of most modelers, but a beginning modeler that wants a brass engine should seek out the help of an experienced brass operator as to what will run good on his or her layout. Will the model go around thier curves, does it run well or does it need motor/gearbox help. All very good questions so they will be happy with thier purchase. At one time I was very naive about brass, had no clue what to buy. But with the help of a good friend, I made my first purchase, I think it was a 3 truck PFM/United shay from a dealer at a show for around $300. Which at the time was a huge purchase for me, equil to almost a years worth of normal train budget spending. It was unpainted and stayed that way for several years as I enjoyed it and got up the nerve and ablity to paint it. That was 10 years or so ago. Now I seek out brass models as I enjoy them more than the new plastic/diecast stuff that is stuffed with elect
Unless the person was running a model of the CB&Q 5632 with CB&Q markings, the brass color is incorrect. However, for a NMRA convention, they did paint the 5632 in brass color and pulled excursions back about forty years ago.
For anyone to run the models in brass without paint is like running your plastic models in gray or black plastic since finishing them would detract from the value???
There are a few collectors that prefer brass finish, but they do not run their models or even let them see the light of day. Lately, the new brass is not even offer without paint, since the can make more money on the model by painting the model.
We used to kid about the modeling the UP, which stands for un painted! Or some of our members at that time modeled the UDECRR, undecorated railroad. I like to break in a brass unpainted model on a layout to see if it handles the radius or needs some modifications, but that is testing before it is painted. Most of the larger steam KTM models built in the seventies needed some additional side play in the drivers to get around 30" radius curves without some problems.
CZ