first off, how can it be “prewar” but only been made in the last few years?
why would you want to pay that kind of money for a copy of something, why not buy the real thing for 1/2 the price?
imo, lionel is killing the market for real pre and post war stuff, by rereleasing it is making the value of the real things drop. all because lionel cant come up with any new idea’s so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them.
when i buy a perwar lionel, i want a prewar lionel… not a 2008 copy of a prewar lionel.
in the 2008 book, i found only one piece of rolling stock that i want that was new for 2008 everything other was the same stuff that was in the 2007 books, with maybe a new road name added to the line here or there. lionel needs to get their head out of there a** when it comes to there new stuff. thank god for MTH, or id never get to buy any new designs . just remakes of lionels old stuff.
lionel has put out some nice looking engines the last few years, but thats all they are, “nice looking” i just scrapped out 5 years worth of there engines as they was sub par in reliability , i switched to MTH engines and had nothing but good luck with them. but even mth has to copy lionel prewar, i dont think much of that,
i buy newer MTH engines, and post and prewar lionel. i would buy more lionel rolling stock if they ever come out with something new. they are lacking in standard O , thats for sure.
Lionel is a company trying to emerge from a bankruptcy. I think it’s an effort on their part to put “new” product out in the market using tooling that has been monetarily amortized decades ago. The Prewar Celebration Series is fast becoming as popular as the Postwar Celebration Series, making it a win for seller and buyer alike. Lionel puts out a product with lower overhead, and customers get to buy mint in box versions of some 70 year old classics.
I’m not sure why anyone would want to buy the old stuff when you can get some nice, bright, brand-spanking-new prewar trains! New, is generally, better than old.
Actually Jim I think Lionel is doing this in response to MTH knock-offs.
MTH has been selling prewar knock-offs for a few years now and they include their PS2 sound and control system in them. IMHO, that is why Lionel is reissueing the Prewar and Postwar stuff.
Hmmm… funny that Lionel hasn’t sued MTH to stop them from selling knock-offs.
2, the american made pre and post war lionel is way more reliable , even when some of it is 70 some years old then lionels new engines that was made in china and korea.
bright and shiny is all the new “pre war” is, they are still the same junk quality as all the rest of the china and korea made stuff.
[2c] I’m really a novice compared to most of you. My current interest is Postwar (originals). When I got into the O27 world, I did look at the Post War Cellebration series -even purchased a couple- but, in turn sold them, opting for the old stuff. If I did not have some originals, I probably would have been satisfied with the newer items…I would guess that this is the same for the newer Prewar trains…Just another class of train enthusiasts which is great for the hobby. [:)]
The difference is in the 70 - 100 years, Bob. I like prewar because it is old. I appreciate the history. I find no fascination in running new tinplate, but running my 80-year-old #10E is a real hoot! Just think of the years it has seen and the places it has been and the hands that have held it!
I could wish that I were the only one who felt this way, though, so I could buy lots of the originals cheaply
I’d agree that the old stuff is more bullet proof than more modern trains - and here is the … but … - the execution of the tooling, quality of the parts and detailing, decoration (painting and signage) and performance of the modern gear outdistances anything made in the olden days.
I’ve tested well over 300 modern locomotives, probably more than 2/3 made in Asia, and while not all have been winners, there has only been one that I considered total junk.
Theres a market for the remakes,as Bob stated a nice new copy is appealling to many of us. Try finding a nice 752 at a fair price,can’t be done unless you rip off a widow. Many train nuts like the new. and of course its not prewar its a reissue of a prewar item.
I agree with the above statement. I buy prewar for the historical aspect of them. People say it allows a collector to own something in “mint condition”, how does this work. The old mint items are ultra rare because they survived decades in new condition. I dont by that. Some of the MTH products find a niche. The 1134 is one such product. Originals are exceedingly rare, and when one is found it is usually broken. However i bought only a boiler casting to replace a badly broken original.
Okay one more thing. what the *&%^ is with the sound in the prewar tenders. That is the most pointless thing i have seen the new companies do with a repro. They need to make rare stuff like a 256 or 289, and make the parts for the repros readily available to repair originals. I went through hades to obtain a bare 1134 casting. 200 bucks later(overpriced) i have one. I would definately buy a beat original over a new one.
I think that has a lot to do with it as well, Brent. Has anyone ever counted the number of times the word Lionel shows up in MTH’s tinplate and RTR catalogs?! But rather than turn this into a Lionel vs MTH thing, I’ll just applaud Lionel for continuing a winning tradition by offering more prewar reissues. When are they going to release a new prewar celebration 1688 Torpedo set? [tup]
The appeal in Prewar isn’t in precision in paint application: it’s in the fact that the paint was applied nearly (or more than) a century ago, and it’s still mostly there (IVES pieces exempt from this rule [:o)])! It’s not supposed to be precise. These were “toys not pretending to be something else” (wonderful sentiment I lifted from The Tinplate Times). Nobody is going to hand a Blue Comet repop over to a ten year old today (I think Jim Bunte made that observation in CTT’s pages some years ago), but the originals were made for and played with by boys. Even the simple ones like my humble #10E are fascinating as toys. The idea that a little nipper ran this puppy 'round the living creating noise and other mayhem fires my imagination when I run it. They are tangible links to the past which no reproduction can reproduce. They can make the trains, even faithfully (if they would), but they cannot make the history.
There are some people who like having something new, with new paint, new precision, etc., but that looks old. That’s fine with me if it’s what they want; it increases the interest in tinplate trains, and as long as they’re running around telling people the originals are junk, that leaves more for me.
I can see the appeal of something new made the old-fashioned way, but I’m with some of the others here that I’d rather have an original, however imperfect. Nothing with a can motor matches the smell of the ozone and old lubricants of an original. Maybe the new ones with the so-called “traditional” motors have some of that essence. But I like holding something in my hand that has a history. Nothing can ever replace the postwar engines Dad played with himself, and that we played with together in the 1980s. Or the small cast iron American Flyer in my living room that I bought at an estate sale near my future wife’s apartment in 2004. Sometimes, when I get the chance to buy something from the original owner who’s still alive, I can learn more about the item’s history.
Since Lionel and MTH are able to make money selling reproductions of the old trains, that’s fine with me. People buy them. I just won’t be one of them (most likely).
As far as Lionel preventing MTH from making Lionel reproductions, the designs are old enough that there’s no intellectual property surrounding them anymore, aside from the Lionel trademark. You and I could make reproductions of vintage trains in our garages and basements if we had the skills and tooling to do so. (Which is precisely what Jerry Williams did, and a neighbor named Mike Wolf started working for him, and you probably know the rest of that story.) Others have done it in the past, and are still doing it now. We just can’t slap the original brand name on them, since Lionel owns the Lionel and AF brands, and MTH owns Ives.
If I were going to buy a reproduction I would prefer to buy something from Joe M
I am glad they are being made, but I personally would rather go with originals too. I understand why someone would buy a repro when the originals are prohibitively expensive. I certainly have purchased a number of repro accessories, like a Hellgate Bridge, that I otherwise could not afford. One of the reasons I have stayed away from the repro trains is there always seems to be something wrong with the Lionel versions, whether it is the wheels, the paint color, whatever. If I were be plunking down more than what a good original would cost, I’d at least like to be confident it would be done right, and I don’t feel that way yet. MTH’s versions have looked great, but I want ozone. I would be much more interested in buying if it were something that was not made before but that still captured the tinplate feel. How about a tinplate cab forward? A tinplate Dreyfuss? Scott
I would also like to have an original pre war set, but if Lionel reissues a nice “have to have set” and the original is quite a bit more in price, I’m going to buy the reissue!
If the prices are compareable between the original and a reissue, I’m going with the original!
Now, If Lionel had made the Ives 1694, I’d want that. And please don’t say Lionel will only make lionel engines, since that was made after Lionel became the sole owner of Ives. In fact I belive they still hold the rights to the Ives name as evidenced by the fact that they keep issuing the 027 track clips with Ives printed on them periodically to maintain the name as current.
well, I’ve always been partial to the tin stuff as well as pre and post war stuff and for the most part I think there is room for both. the one thing that was a turn off as far as the repop tin is the modern sounds and maybe the smoke. very disturbing to go on youtube to see one and watch this bizarre contradiction of clunky tin rolling around making electronically reproduced train sounds. here’s an idea for Lionel to kick around. no electronics on tin plate and more on the lower end runner type engines like the Hogwarts or the Polar express. can you imagine these for around the same price with Railsounds out of the box? MTH seems to be able to sell $300.00 sets with Protosounds 2.0. also I’m with the guy who suggested re issues of 1688, 1668, 221, etc. I love the streamliners! I can’t justify $1000.00 for one. make me a nice O27 re issue for a couple hundred and I’d be tickled pink!
“all because lionel cant come up with any new idea’s so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them.”
The prewar and postwar celebration series account for less than 5% of the catalog each year, so your comment is not supported by the facts. As far as new ideas, how about the first command control system in the three rail world (six years before the competition), the first improved coupler in 50 years or so (copied by the competition :), the Polar Express and Hogwarts sets, merchandising in the main stream stores for the first time in decades, the AEC reactor fluid tank cars, the Phantom, the only comprehensive line of operating railroad accessories in the industry, state of the art scale freight cars, Thomas the Tank, and on and on. For a tiny 60 million dollar a year company not too shabby, and much more “play” value and varieties of products (not road names, but actual niche products) than any competitor’s line. Needless to say, I thoroughly disagree with almost all your points :).
And if you don’t like the prewar repros, you don’t have to buy them. It goes without saying that if people weren’t buying them, Lionel wouldn’t make them (not to mention MTH stealing their trade dress :), and the values of originals wouldn’t be affected. Lionel is in business to make toy trains, not support the value of your collection or mine.
