Apologies if this has been discussed before. I’m currently planning my layout with a 2.5% max grade. Will a typical single HO-scale engine pull a train of 12-15 cars on a 2.5% grade? I’m not modeling a mountainous area so I don’t want to use helpers. Thanks.
I know you don’t want to hear this, but that really depends on:
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The locomotive. What’s it’s tractive effort? Does it have traction tires? Heavier engines tend to do better on grades, all things being equal.
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The cars. Lightweight 40-footers, or 85’ passenger cars with weights, or 89’ autoracks?
Your best bet is to do some testing. Get yourself some of the Woodland Scenics risers. Try 3% grade since you know if that works your 2.5% will work. Lay some track on it temporarily and do some pull-tests! I used to have 2-3% grades on my N scale layout and got so sick of the limitations and helpers that I swore off grades altogether. Now that I model the PRR’s Middle Division, I can be prototypical and be flat (the first major grade west of Harrisburg was just past Altoona, which was technically the Pittsburgh Division).
Thanks for the suggestions, but I’m not really set up to do any testing. I’m just getting started and don’t even have a power transformer at this stage. However I’m starting on benchwork and want to know if I’m making a mistake before I put in the risers and roadbed for a 2.5% grade. If anyone can just give a general sense of what the typical HO engine will pull, or maybe a couple of examples of particular engines, that would be very helpful, thanks.
Yeah, what he said. It really depends on what you’re doing and WITH what. Shays Climaxes and Heislers typically climbed grades as high or higher than 12%. On the average though, I would say no more than 2-2.5% at the most. Remember though, that we’re dealing with scale models. As such, you don’t always have the scale space to dedicate to the layout, so some compromises have to be made.
The “typical” HO engine, since you seem to be stuck on having us respond to your generalization, will pull anywhere from 2-20 properly weighted cars up a 2.5% grade. Quite a range, eh?
A Life Like P2K 0-6-0 without a traction tire will pull about 3 cars up that grade, maybe four of the H2A coal hoppers if your grade is very consistent from section to section of track. On the other hand, a brass 2-10-4 will probably whizz up that grade dragging your screeching and spitting cat…but that is another story.
I would say that you will be okay with that grade, but as you increase even by 0.5%, you will cut your ability in nearly half.
At 2.5% most steamers will pull a train of 4-6 cars. With a traction tire on my BLI, I pull my whole coal train of 28 cars up my 2.5%. My brass 2-6-6-2s will pull 4 - 6 cars up my 2.3% grade with some slipage. My brass shay will pull 2 or 3 cars up my 4% switchback.
Bottom line. For one engine pulling 6-8 cars, stay at 2% or less.
If you are will to double head you can pull more. I find double heading fun.
If you will add a traction tire, you can pull almost anything until the engine stalls. 3% is no problem and alows you to add more height is you are into mountains.
If you are going DCC, 3 % is no problem because you can double head easily.
I hope this helps. Keep refining your questions and we can be more specific.
Thanks for the replies. My layout will be set in the steam/diesel transition era so I’ll be running both. I don’t actually own any steam locomotives yet, so I can’t give you any specifics there. (I’m just getting back into the hobby after a hiatus of many years.) I do plan to use DCC but would prefer not to double-head my trains (at least not the ones pulled by steam). I’m modeling the L&N and Seaboard in north Florida where grades really weren’t an issue. Based on what you’ve said so far it sounds like 2.5 is a bit steep for me. I’ll see if I can work it down to 2%.
FloridaPanhandler,
It seems that you got some good answers to you question. Where in the panhandle do you live? I’m
in Pensacola, so I am as far west as you can go without getting some Alabama on your shoes![:D]
Just kiddin’(for any Alabamians out there.) Anyway, welcome to the forum. Enjoy. Dave
I live in Tallahassee. My wife’s from Milton, so we visit your area often. I’m modeling the L&N/SAL route from Pensacola to Tallahassee.
On my HO layout I do have a 2.5% grade about 12’ long. When running my cheep Bauchman (8 wheel drive and no flywheels) it will pull about 18 cars up the grade alright but comming down it gets real jearky like the loco is trying to outrun the motor. I also have 2 Model Power Metal F7A’s that will pull the grade with 23 cars with little problem, They run very well double headed. When I built the grade I was shooting for a 2% but by the time I got down it turned out to be a 2.5%. I was worried that the Bauchman would not pull it But it did, at that time That was the only loco I had except a trainset LL
FlaPanhandler,
So, have been been to the North West Florida RR museum in Milton? Not a whole lot to see, but the operating layout is nice. They have done a fine job of modeling Milton and the surrounding area. I try to get by there every now and then… they keep odd hours. If you click the Photobucket link in my sig, the first three pictures are from the Depot.
I am currently trying to get in gear on my latest modeling project. I will be modeling the Southern’s Murphy Branch in western North Carolina. The layout will be in a 12’ x 20’ space and will be a double decker, so I share your grade concerns. My track plan includes a constant 2% grade to the upper level and may require helpers… depending on train length. But the real Murphy Branch reached up to 6% over Red Marble Grade! I will probably have some L&N equipment roaming around as well. If you want to talk L&N, go over to modelrailroadforums.com and strike it up with Rex(rexhea) and Cary(cj creasent). They are the L&N gurus. Good luck. Dave
Florida, what’s a “typical” engine? There’s really no such thing. Also, 2.5% is VERY steep. During steam days, CGW would use helpers on a 1.3% grade, since the rest of the line was mostly flat.
Thanks to my garage floor I have a 2% grade that I was not counting on! Right now I have a Proto 1000 Erie Built A pulling 20 cars at 50% throttel. Some are easy rollers some of them cheap none worked cars.
As far as pure pulling power, I love my Proto 2000’s E-6’s. Doubled headed I have pulled 41 cars before string effect took over on my badly bulit bench.
My Protos are DC only, but still will out pull what I can do bench wise. E-6’s should fiit in to the time frame you are talking about give or take a few years.
Cuda Ken, I know nothing but learing thanks to this great site.
FloridaPanhandler;
I also am not quite sure just what a “typical” engine is; I’m not even sure such a creature exists. I do, however, know that the grade a locomotive will ascend (with a train, of course) is going to be dependent upon the rolling qualities of the trucks used, the weight of the train being lugged up a particular grade, and whether or not the track is straight or curved (if you check out a locomotive test as outlined in, say, Model Railroader, they always refer to the lugging performance on straight and level track.
At this moment there is a poster (over on page 2) named Lillen whose question concerns the proper weight of cars. You and him are, surprisinly, addressing essentially the same problem. Any increase in the weight of a car may allow for better tracking through switchwork and around curves while at the same time decreasing a (particular) locomotive’s ability to pull it up a grade. One frequently hears, “I just don’t understand it! I used to be able to pull ten cars up that grade!” If your loke will now only pull nine and you are using the same cars you always used - as on a passenger train, for example - then you probably are experiencing the beginning of a deterioration in that particular locomotive’s performance; if, however, you have changed the dynamics of the train - a different car, for example - you may just have to contend with a nine car train - that or add more muscle.
The real railroads encountered the same thing; according to a Trains’ article I once read the old Espee cab-forwards were rated at 4,000 tons over “the hill” - that’s Donner summit if you are uninitiated; the grades on Donner are the same today as fifty years ago but cars have gotten heavier yet todays high horsepower diesels - observe the plural - are able to lift over 10,000 tons up to and over the summit. Some of that increased lugging capacity is due to an improvement in metallurgy wh