I just read that thread on ‘Scale Trains’ and tried to reply with a quote but couldn’t select and CUT the unwanted material except by backspacing so its easier to post a new message.
Well said Brianel027 regarding ‘imagination’ - exactly so.
I have read elsewhere messages to the effect that the reason why manufacturers are losing their shirts is because of the demands of ‘scale’ enthusiasts? Well I find that hard to believe, I can believe that manufacturers respond to trends, they’d be nuts if they didn’t but I doubt very much if they are so insecure as to hock the farm because some nut job expressed pique at not being able to get some obscure loco and then went bellyup when the enthusiasts wouldn’t purchase it because it was one rivet shy of a load!
Someone on OGR mentioned Ameritrains which I duly checked out and lo and behold, exactly what I have been wanting, basically four wheelers. Which is what gave rise to the title of this post. I’m blessed if I can understand WHY I should find these rudimentary pieces of rolling stock so attractive but there’s something about that cheap(ish) and cheerful tinplate that just works for me better than much more lifelike semi-scale products.
Its an inconsistent eccentricity. I dont much care for the 4 wheeler locos, not when theres that much overhang but the same mechanism and the same overall crudity would work fine for a tank engine it just exceeds my capacity to suspend disbelief for a main line locomotive. On the other hand though, I’d rather have that overhang than a much better looking model made of plastic, after all one can always add a bogie/truck if it bothers one THAT much.
Its not just me though. We took our 3 yr old surrogate daughter (actual niece) to FAO Schwarz to choose herself some toys and given a choice of a dolls teaset in china, plastic or tinplate she chose the tinplate one and then went on to select two more tinplate toys. My wife and I had been discussing this "what makes
Makes perfect sense to me. These are toys, period. They were meant to played with, period. Somewhere/somehow these aspects have gotten lost in collector mentality and scale obsessionism. It’s almost like we can’t admit or accept that as adults we are playing with toys?
You seem quite OK to me :). Chuck seems to understand you too. I’ve also noticed that strange middle rail that rivet counters don’t seem all that upset by. But put the wrong number on a loco and some people go ballistic. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I really like the scale realism of the current offerings, but not to a point that if the locomotive is missing a row of rivets or is 1 foot short of scale I wouldn’t be happy with it. I also like the alien suspension car, holloween loco and cars too - heck I run’em both[:)]
I, too, understand what Thor is saying. But, Chuck, I respectfully disagree with your take on the collector mentality and scale obsessionism. Collectors collect, scale guys like realism, and many others simply enjoy the toy in toy trains. These are three different but valid approaches to this wonderful hobby.
I’m also tired of the argument that three rails means we should only look at them as toys. And, those of us who are hi-railers would be better served by going into two rail O scale. Would that be considered a toy train mentality?
How about this for an analogy? Let’s say you wanted a piece of art to put on your wall. Let’s also say you want some sort of pastoral scene. What would you choose? Would you select an oil painting, a water color, or a fine art photograph? Is one artform better than another? Is the photographer any less an artist than the painter? If you chose a painting and I picked a watercolor, is your choice better than mine?
You can slice and dice it anyway you want to, but I feel the root problem is that some people just don’t feel comfortable with the concept of adults playing with toys. We call it “model railroading” and it’s a “hobby”. OK, you say toMAYto, I say toMAHto. If you’re having fun, keep having fun and not worry about it. If you’re not having fun, find something else to do that is fun.
My previous layout encompassed the best of both worlds to me. O on the bottom level -highly scenicked and TMCC. The upper layout satisfied my ties to my past - all Marx tin with all the Marx tin accessories. The only plastic on that level was pair of NYC diesels to pull the coaches. One of these days I’ll get started on the new layout which again will include all the tin on it’s own level. Because the Marx is on the upper level and toward the back the tin trains because of their smaller size also add some forced perespective to the layout.
It’s all a matter of tastes. Lithograph tinplate is cheerful and funky. A Lionel 263E which is far from prototypical is just as much a work of art as a DGRW scale tunnel motor.
Thor, there’s nothing wrong with you, nor with many of the regualr posters here on CTT.
The problem is not “scale” and it isn’t “toy” either. The problem is “pride” and “extreme.” I’ve been going through back issues of my train magazines. Many of the train companies admit that there is little profit made on the new scale items due to all the investment in tooling and the small production runs. One of the main points of the MTH lawsuit stated in so many words that with the alledged theft of the MTH engineering drawings, Lionel was able to produce similar items with less down time, thus beating MTH to market and causing MTH financial loss due to the thin margins on these products.
Many feel the lawsuits are costing the hobby by diverting money from tooling. Although the lawsuits must be costly, the big expense the train companies have is tooling along with the associated product development. I believe Mike Wolf has said MTH has something along the lines of $10M invested in DCS. Have they made that back on sales of DCS alone? I doubt it. In the famous CTT interview with Mike Wolf (that got obliterated due to background screen) Mike talked about why he demanded payment for product so quickly and why he was so unflexible on this: tooling and product development was the reason, and it still is. In 1997, MTH stated they had invested $10M in tooling in the previous 3 years only - and that doesn’t include DCS.
MTH finally intoduced the SD90MAC under the Rugged Rails banner, stripped the electronics save for the horn and reverse circuit board, and RAISED the price $30.00. Sorry, but I don’t want to pay for scale products by buying traditional ones. The removal of the extra electronics should have more than compensated for any rise in production costs due to fuel increases. $30 for a basic all plastic Lionel stater car is too much too… I’m willing to pay for a train car, not for t
I agree with most all of what you wrote, Brian, but ya gotta jack up that type font size a bit in your post. A bit hard to read, even on a large monitor.
Everyone enjoys their hobby in their own way. There’s no right or wrong way to enjoy your trains. I find all of it appealing. I gravitate to the O27 stuff. More of a fun factor associated with it for me. The scale stuff is nice, but with it comes an HO scale mentallity. A seriousness that I just don’t want to deal with. I like to run trains (fast) around our 2 loops and watch the steamers billow smoke. I like to sound the whistles and horns to the point of “enough already”. I love watching my kids learn to use the throttle controls and the activation buttons. When I go to shows, I buy more items under the tables than on the tables. I’ve found that one does not have to spend a lot of money to get a kick out of toy trains. Some people dig tinplate. Some go for postwar. Others are into scale. Whatever floats your boat. It’s all good. If you’re having a good time, you’re doing it right. Jim
Dennis, it’s not that the third rail should always connote “toys.” Although, along with Chuck, I’m sorry to say that no matter how seriously some folks take themselves, running miniature trains, except in a museum setting, is play, not work or art in any definition I’ll buy.
It’s that the third rail means, at least to me, one ought to have a sense of humor and perspective about things, which some of the scale guys do not. Of course, some of the toy train collectors have no sense of humor or perspective either.
A hobby is not about perfection for most people, it’s about entertainment, and like other aspects of life, involves compromise. Having the third rail is a big compromise for scale appearance. Thus recognizing that it is not financially feasible to make absolutely correct scale models for reasonable prices is something I expect of even the scale modeler crowd.
Going ballistic about a particular small defect or deviation from a cherished prototype is a sign of lack of a sense of proportion and reasonability IMO. If scale fidelity is the be-all and end-all of one’s interests in model railroading, I would submit that three rail O gauge is, in particular, a VERY odd place to be.
Ranting and raving about particular fantasy paint schemes or gaffes in scale details is more hilarious and sad than to be condemned :). It’s a product, not a religion or law handed down on Mt. Sinai, for goodness sake.
I am fascinated by the difference in the response of friends and visitors to the layout - that in my opinion reveals an interesting perspective on the hobby. Of course, it’s personal and anecdotal but maybe interesting in the context of this thread. I find there is still a general perception about ‘Lionel trains’ that resonates with the ‘public’ that is totally absent when I invited people to see my smaller scale layouts. Something the current CEO of Lionel has also mused upon. In those days, to paraphrase, the response would be this is interesting but weird. Now, it is more wow, look at the lights/sound/movement… my dad/granddad had these… I’ll bet they’re worth a lot of money.
When I get right down to it, personally, it is easier to work with these models in this size and it is a hecka lot easier for me to deal with the wiring. I admire the heck out of scale layouts but enjoy the ‘lack of pressure’ I would put on myself - again purely a personal thing - to duplicate such fidelity.
I think I’ll take this opportunity to complain about people who complain that other people think that toy-model trains are too realistic or not realistic enough.
“Going ballistic about a particular small defect or deviation from a cherished prototype is a sign of lack of a sense of proportion and reasonability IMO. If scale fidelity is the be-all and end-all of one’s interests in model railroading, I would submit that three rail O gauge is, in particular, a VERY odd place to be.”
I don’t disagree with the above. There’s always going to be that loud fanatical fringe on either end in any group. I submit that most of us are reasonable and respect one another’s views. To me, along with the play value, I enjoy it as a three dimentional art form. I get great satisfaction in creating a miniature world that almost looks real when photographed. What’s wrong with that?
The funny thing is most people who view my layout never notice the third rail.
“To me, along with the play value, I enjoy it as a three dimentional art form. I get great satisfaction in creating a miniature world that almost looks real when photographed. What’s wrong with that?”
Nothing at all, of course. And your photography proves your point and the virtue of your approach. Art is very much in the eye of the beholder in any case, even in the world of real “art.” Some folks think Robert Motherwell was a brilliant artist, others think he’s something less than a graffiti artist, for example.
Your use of the term fanatical fringe is quite apt, and all hobbies and walks of life have such individuals who haven’t learned the civilized boundary between their own views and a decent respect for the views of others.
While I have a live and let live approach to the hobby, I can’t help but agree that 3-rail O is an odd place for a scale model railroader to be. the smaller scales, and 2 rail O seem like more logical choices for that type of mindset. No? I’m an O27 guy, and if I won a huge lottery, I’d still be one, but that’s my thing. To each his own. I think the vast majority of posters on this forum share that attitude. Jim
“While I have a live and let live approach to the hobby, I can’t help but agree that 3-rail O is an odd place for a scale model railroader to be. the smaller scales, and 2 rail O seem like more logical choices for that type of mindset. No?”
Three rail is the logical choice for me. When I run my Lionel trains, I’m connecting with my past. The difference is, I can now duplicate in miniature what I could only imagine back then. Two rail O scale doesn’t have that emotional tie.
It’s all good, Dennis. No offense intended. 3-rail does send people on a nostalga trip. Not only do I connect with my past, but with my children as well. Hopefully, somewhere in the future, my kids will look back fondly at our times spent together running trains. Jim
