I’ve noticed that about 5-10 minutes before a train gets to a signal( at least in Trinidad, Colorado) the signal comes on, what happens if the train is originally given a clear signal, and when the train gets to the signal, the green light is burned out? Does the train have to stop, ask for permission and then proceede?
During the blackout, I believe all the trains went into emergency and reported to dispatch for futher instructions. The line were all CTC so if there isn’t anything happening and on a really busy line where there are a lot of passing sidings, I guess that would be the safest choice.
You don’t necessarily have to go into emergency.
If the signal can be seen from a good distance and it is seen to be burnt out, then the engineer can bring the train to retricted speed under control.
Here in the CROR, if it is an intermediate with an “R” plate, then the most retrictive signal that can be given is a restricting, which allows the train to proceed at a speed not greater than 15 MPH prepared to stop short of an improperly lined switch, broken rail, equipment left on track, or an opposing movement. There is no requirement to stop and proceed.
The train then has to call up the RTC and notify them of the burnt out signal.
If the signal does not have an “R” plate, and all lights are burnt out (two or three aspect signal) - (very unlikely) then the most retrictive signal that could be displayed would be a stop, then the train has to call up the RTC and ask for a 564, which gives the train permission to pass the stop signal.
However if there is only one aspect burnt out on a 2 or 3 aspect signal, then as long as the bottom aspect is not yellow (which would be a restricting signal), then the train may proceed at the most restrictive possibility for that signal.
(If it was yellow over a burned out than the most restrictive would be a clear to stop.)
However, if at any point the signal appears to be damaged, than the train cannot pass that signal, as it’s indication cannot be trusted, so again a 564 would have to be issued by the RTC, signal imperfectly displayed.
That’s up here in Canada for the Canadian Railways, CROR.
always take the signal for the most restirctive indication that it can display… should you come around the bend and see a dark signal…or a signal bulb burned out that shows a more restrictive indication than you should be getting at that location in relation to the signal you came in on…emergancy is not to be used unless you cant see the track to be clear headed of you… if you can see…you use good train handeling to bring the train into compliance…and you run at that speed… untill you pass the next signal…
csx engineer
ok I saw the following on csx tracks.these are absolute sinals too
x r
r r
track 2 track 1
facing west
facing east
r r
x r
r track 2
track 1
these signals are at fc tower on the willard sub defiance oh.
how would you react?
stay safe
joe
what do you mean…how would i react… need a bit more info on how this seniro is building up…but if i was to come into an absolute signal…on a clear…and i have a red or a dark signal…you come to a controlled stop if you can see the track head of you is clear…if i cant see…or i can see that it isnt…ONE BIG HOLE COMEING UP…and maybe ABANDON SHIP depending on speed…and distance to impact…
csx engineer
Is X a symbol for being dark? If so, signal has to be taken at its most restrictive indication, which being an absolute signal, would be STOP.
Many railroads had “burnout protection” in ABS territory. If a signal light was burned out, it draws no amperage, and was wired so that under that condition the signal in advance displayed a yellow (approach) indication.
On one such railroad, a Trainmaster figured he could put a milk can over the green indication on a signal, thus making it dark. But the train got a clear signal on the last one in advance, and came busting around the corner to find a dark one. After it came to light what had caused the engineer to make an emergency stop, the TM was shown the error of his ways . . .
And, no, it wasn’t me.
Old Timer
Speaking of which-Do TM’s set ABS signals to red for testing crews? If so, is there a “test” switch in a locked signal box or is “another” method employed.
Jay
Quoth jeaton: “Speaking of which-Do TM’s set ABS signals to red for testing crews? If so, is there a “test” switch in a locked signal box or is “another” method employed.”
Yes, TMs and RFEs do these dastardly deeds. In some locations there is a plug in locked signal cases that can be pulled to set the signals red. In other locations, other methods can be used (I’ve used some of them, and for obvious reasons I’m not saying what they are). In TC territory, the dispatcher can be instructed to hold a controlled signal in stop position to see if the crew makes the proper stop and communicates with the dispatcher. The dispatcher will just say, “I can’t give you that signal” and then tell the train what he wants it to do.
Supervisors are required to make a certain number of tests. Usually they don’t like being out there any more than the crews like for them to be.
Don’t tell me about the TMs that have it in for crew members; I’ve heard it all before. Before you can convince me about them, you’ve got to convince me that all crews are always innocent and always follow the letter of the rule.
Don’t waste your time trying.
Old Timer
They do follow every letter of all the rules… but they get dislexia or run a few letters together when they get in a hurry!
its not uncommon for managment to “give” you a bad signal to see how you comply with the rules governing train movements… but i have never heard of anyone in managment making a signal dark after you go past a clear…just to see how you would handel the train…that would be just plain crazy…not to mention if something should have gone majorly wrong… like a derailment as a result of that… someons head would have been on a stick and it wouldnt have been the crews…now as far as say a banner test on a restriced signal or a permistion by a stop at an absoult signa…they do that all the time… managment is required by the FRA to do so many random tests like that…
csx engineer
Csx
sorry about that. Yes the x is the dark signal.and you cant see too far beyond the signal mast because there is a curve. thanks you guys answered my question.
stay safe
Joe
no problem… hope it what i said dose help out a little bit…its hard to explain things on a computer that inst in real time…alot of info and points can and do get lost in the time lage between posts…
csx engineer
“I believe all the trains went into emergency and reported to dispatch for futher instructions.”
“emergancy is not to be used”
Thank goodness cooler heads prevailed on this one. A normal stop is all that is required in the case of a blacked out signal. NO EMERGENCY! All you are doing then is puttting your Conductor on the ground to walk the train!
“After it came to light what had caused the engineer to make an emergency stop, the TM was shown the error of his ways”
We had some weed weasels turn off the sound to a Hot Box detector to see what the crew would do. Crew didn’t stop, so they got disiplined and so did the RR because the FRA didn’t cotton to having the “Safety Device” bypassed!
We’ve also had some weed weasels put a banner up on the wrong side of a signal, as in on a clear or an approach signal. Lost some good banners that way and someone lost a lot of weight in his rear end…Hee…Hee…Hee
thats not 100% true…emergancy can be used if it is nessasary… like i said above…if the rail is clear of obstrucitions and you can see the rail head of you…you bring your train to a stop with good train handleing …but if you cant see…then emergancy is nessasary…
csx engineer
“thats not 100% true…emergancy can be used if it is nessasary”
True, IF IT IS NESSASARY! “If you can’t see” Did you suddenly go blind just because you passed a blacked out signal?
As a supervisor, I can sympathize with Old Timer about tests and other duties that come with being first-level management. We have to know that the people who report to us know their jobs and perform them properly and safely.
Yes, I do understand that testing is a an important part of insuring safety compliance. As a friend once suggested, managing a railroad is no more difficult than managing a manufacturing plant 8’ 4-1/2" wide by several thousand miles long.
I did know someone who liked to do road safety tests, at least in the summertime. Seems that the tracks followed the shore of a lake very suited for a quick dip. Before radios, but a public crossing a mile or so off provided just enough notice to strike a fusee, get toweled off, and get back into the suit and tie. Of course, that was back in the days dress codes for bosses.
Jay
Hi group my name is Rodney and I am a student engineer on the BNSF. A dark signal has happened to me during training after passing a clear the only thing that I done is waht csxengineer done was to bring the train to a controlled stop used a lot of air. I sat 10psi waited for the brakes to take hold then set a full service to bring the train to a stop no big hole it would have been ugly. The place it happened was at the UP diamond in Rochelle not much can be done if the train is moving at track speed for the area except hang on for the ride.
Rodney
Student engineer BNSF