when will they ever learn? who will teach them?

Trains Magazine General Discussion
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TRAINS News Wire for June 20, 2005
[[excerpt]

Lawyers cite fatigue in 2002 BNSF-Metrolink crash

LOS ANGELES - A BNSF freight-train conductor blamed for a cra***hat killed three Metrolink passengers and injured more than 260 in Placentia, Calif., three years ago was tired after weeks of working long hours and erratic sleep, attorneys say, citing sworn statements taken for dozens of lawsuits, according to a story in the Los Angeles Times and published on their Web site LATimes.com. Although the conductor, in his deposition, said fatigue had nothing to do with the accident, attorneys say it could be an important factor in the crash as well as in their bid to win millions of dollars in punitive damages from the BNSF.

The attorneys, who represent the injured Metrolink passengers, cite the sworn depositions of conductor Dean E. Tacoronte, 41, and engineer Darrell W. Wells, 51. Both were fired by the railway, which blamed their inattentiveness for the accident in which their freight train collided into a stopped Metrolink train the morning of April 23, 2002.

“Me and Darrell, we were both tired that day,” Tacoronte said in his deposition. He had worked 29 days straight in the weeks before the crash. “We were real, real busy…I worked all the time.”

Attorneys say the statements of Tacoronte and, to a lesser extent, Wells, bolster the lawyers’ assertions that BNSF should pay punitive damages for company practices that regularly put tired crews at the controls of freight trains.

The attorneys’ views differ from the October 2003 findings of the National Transportation Safety Board, which investigated the accident. The NTSB concluded that Wells and Tacoronte had been talking about non-work matters when they failed to heed a yellow warning signal requiring them to slow down and prepare to stop at the next signal. Investigators found no evidence that fatigue, alcohol, drugs, or problems with the signals contributed to the crash.

The

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As with many things, everything is just fine until something bad happens.

From the outside looking in, I’d say the blame runs in many directions. Management for trying to squeeze every last drop of blood from the stone, the union for letting it happen, and the workers themselves.

As has been said many times, it’s all about money. The railroad wants maximum return for minimum investment, and I’ll bet that the crew member wasn’t complaining about the amount of money in his paycheck, either. The union, in large part, appears to be following the wishes of its members, who generally like those paychecks.

And before anyone gets worked up - please note that I’m bashing both sides here.

Unfortunately, nobody is going to like the solution - management doesn’t want to hire any more trainmen than it has to, and while they trainmen will appreciate more rest, the resultant cut in pay might have an effect on the house payment. Attempting to get a raise in the hourly rate so that the W2 remains constant won’t be popular with the stockholders, either.

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larry, here’s a quote from your note…

I"'ll bet that the crew member wasn’t complaining about the amount of money in his paycheck, either"


help me out, larry, im clueless about the message you are sending.. is it that workers generally, or just r.r. poeple should be greatful for their wage & bennies? just take the money and run? that covers just about 95% of anything people would complain about, right? it doesn't leave much room for discussion-- 'take it or leave it'.. if a man/woman is attracted to r.r. work and enters the profession understanding the rules, the risks, etc.., do they forfeit the right to air complaints over any issues? should the job and bennies, per se, be adequate to offset physical and emotional stresses, disabilities, etc.. is there a situation that might occur that would justify exposure to the public, in hopes of correcting situations that jeopardize the lives and work status of any worker and his family? i dont say r.r. workers are blameless, but from my limited scope on the subject (i have no r.r.-ing exp.), i dont see much blame that belongs to them.. notwithstanding their knowledge of the dangers of r.r.-ing, there is no way a worker can forfeit his right to a safe work environment in exchange for job security, and no way a co. should be able to hold an employee's job status as a potential loss if grievances become too intense or too public for r.r. mgmt.. these guys heve a job to do; it happens they love it, probably before they ever started doing it;. it happens the job has great rewards, in wages, friendships and personal satisfaction.. but, according to you, since they find it so rewarding, they should accept the risk of great stress that impacts them physically and emotionally--and their families..

you remind me of a character in the movie, 'the taking of pelham 1-2-3'.. a dispatcher is upset over the disruption of certain tracks & schedules which are his responsibility.. he objects to the lengthy negotiat
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Cabforward: You would/do make a good spin doctor for politicians. You took what Larry said and twisted it with your own spin.

What he said made a lot of sense. He blames all sides and I agree - there is enough to go around. I have been around railroad workers long enough to know that they don’t back off making money. I would too, given the chance to work for the railroad! It is part of being the human animal.

He didn’t lay the entire blame on workers as you spun it to be.

But I will agree with you in one respect - you may be wrong and yes, you are!

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Thanks, Mook.

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The work needs to be done. No one will really sleep. Trucking is even worse. At least with railroads you can be dead on the law and some one will run out to your location to dog catch you.

If we stopped to sleep in our bunks in some cases, we would be fired. Never mind what the law says.

All the money in the world is worthless when you have not seen your family or cannot stay awake long enough to actually spend any of it.

Large parts of trucking is lost due to fatique. But some of the best workdays I remember were those that were done well and with quality effort AFTER a VERY restful night’s sleep. At least for me.

As far as I am concerned, driving fatiqued is worst than driving drunk.

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What is the 12 hour rule for? [?][?]

How many hours a week do you work[?][?]

Do you have a job that you can get from point A to point B in 3 hours & you are done for the day[?]

[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by cabforward

TRAINS News Wire for June 20, 2005
[[excerpt]

Lawyers cite fatigue in 2002 BNSF-Metrolink crash

LOS ANGELES - A BNSF freight-train conductor blamed for a cra***hat killed three Metrolink passengers and injured more than 260 in Placentia, Calif., three years ago was tired after weeks of working long hours and erratic sleep, attorneys say, citing sworn statements taken for dozens of lawsuits, according to a story in the Los Angeles Times and published on their Web site LATimes.com. Although the conductor, in his deposition, said fatigue had nothing to do with the accident, attorneys say it could be an important factor in the crash as well as in their bid to win millions of dollars in punitive damages from the BNSF.

The attorneys, who represent the injured Metrolink passengers, cite the sworn depositions of conductor Dean E. Tacoronte, 41, and engineer Darrell W. Wells, 51. Both were fired by the railway, which blamed their inattentiveness for the accident in which their freight train collided into a stopped Metrolink train the morning of April 23, 2002.

“Me and Darrell, we were both tired that day,” Tacoronte said in his deposition. He had worked 29 days straight in the weeks before the crash. “We were real, real busy…I worked all the time.”

Attorneys say the statements of Tacoronte and, to a lesser extent, Wells, bolster the lawyers’ assertions that BNSF should pay punitive damages for company practices that regularly put tired crews at the controls of freight trains.

The attorneys’ views differ from the October 2003 findings of the National Transportation Safety Board, which investigated the accident. The NTSB concluded that Wells and Tacoronte ha

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Just like the Trucking industry it is get it there as fast as possible. I used to run over 800 miles aday running solo and still was yelled at by my dispatcher for not running hare enough. One time running a team load that I was the only driver on the truck I had to go from upstate NY to Stockton CA via El Paso TX. Cool whip does not like altitude and has to be kept below 5000 ft. By the time I got to Phoneix AZ I was ready to drop and needed a day to rest. My dispacther zapped me a message and said your appt is at 4 tomorrow. I was still 900 miles out and had 22 hrs left to make it in. I luckily made it but almost took out a bridge on the last 100 miles. My regular dispacther was back then and told me to get some sleep I went to the closest truckstop and proceeded to sleep for 18 hrs straight. My dispatcher tried to get me a load that allowed me to get some better rest back east. The dispacther who told me that I did not run is now married to the bosses daughter. [soapbox][banghead][banghead]

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spbed appears to be unfamiliar with railroad operations. While I am an amateur looking in, I am aware of why the Hours of Service Law exists and that trains do get delayed for a variety of reasons going from Point A to Point B and crews will run out of time. Fatigued crews seem to be a major problem in all forms of transportation, even in commercial aviation. I also agree with Larry, there is enough blame to go around to everybody on this matter.

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spbed, There have been some load assignments where I literally clocked in at 3 am, drove 45 miles to pick up a load in DC for Richmond only to be told that I am now a spare truck in a convoy of 4. Do I want to go or not?

Since I needed repair to my rig and the other three drivers (Co-workers) said that they were in good shape for the day, 3 hours later Im clocked off.

I got paid for the trip and time waiting. It is still more than what mcjob pays for a day’s work in minimum wage.

Such days are very rare in today’s world.

Dispatchers can make or break drivers and crews.

There is one rule in transportation. No matter how much pleasure it will bring you… never never never tell the boss where to stick the load. He will starve or wear you out.

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First,

Thanks Larry for the well written response. I could not agree more.

Second,

Although I am sure I am not telling too many people anything they don’t know, but putting the public at risk for a bigger paycheck/bigger ROE is common to many industries outside of railroading.

Doctors, considered by many to be one of the most honorable of professions (and considered by myselft to be much more honorable than mine) are notorious for this. I am not exagerating when I have seen more than one case where a doctor accidentally amputated the wrong leg, severed the wrong artery, etc. etc. Every time something like that happens, the first culprit is sleep deprivation.

The only thing that scares me with trains is the disaster caused by rail sleep deprivation can be much more dramatic. Is there anyone out there who doesn’t think it is only a matter of time before sleep deprivation causes a train loaded with toxic substances to derail in the middle of a populated area and cause 100s if not 1000s of deaths? I shutter to think what will happen to the industry, country, and affected citizens on such a day.

Gabe

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With friends like that, who needs enemies???!!!

Let’s hope it never happens…

-Mark
www.fuzzyworld3.com

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mookie says:
But I will agree with you in one respect - you may be wrong and yes, you are!

okay, mookie, i was wrong… which part? this post has gotten a lot of static, but it’s all general, not a specific point as to WHAT i said that was wrong, even worse, no recommendation to improve the situation…? i presented a news story; i presented my opinion, i presented ideas about makiing improvements, and the response?? RASBERRIES!! i open a discussion about a news item in a r.r. journal; i give opinions about making things better, and you guys respond with STATIC… . no facts to rebuke the information i offer, no suggestions that are better than mine, just STATIC! and this adds to the forum’s value? are you saying the news account was wrong? you can refute my opinions, but you should at least come up with something better, which noone has… it seems the routine is, discredit me and play “can you top this?” by talking about worse times and harder jobs… i never said other jobs were less dangerous… the end comes when the posts read like crying in one’s beer for the good ole’ days… here’s a headline: there never were any good ole’ days… just old men who miss them… it’s o.k. to post “war stories”, but it won’t help anyone to live in the present or planning for the future… this is the reason for my post…

bottom line, i said r.r. crews dont get enough rest between hours workled–mookie said i was wrong; i said crews should get even longer breaks between runs if a run exceeds 8 hours–mookie said i was wrong; i said r.r. crews share less of the blame because they just want to work at a job they enjoy, earn a wage and live to retirement–mookie said i was wrong… mookie & larry say those r.r. crews are in it for the big $$… just like the prez’s of the class 1 lines… yeah, right… the working union stiffs are SO greedy… cant you see it in their eyes when they show up for work at 2 a.m.? it’s still there after 10 hours under bad weather or any other condition that adds stress to

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Cabforward

I think you present a very good point. There should be a certain time limit between runs that should be included and enforced in the union contract. Otherwise, incidents like this one will continue to happen.[V]

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The thing of it is…

Management will always push for the cheapest solution that makes the most money. That is their job. Shareholders will continue to pressure management to earn more and customers will press for cheaper costs which enable lower freight rates.

Employees will seek to make the most money. Some will seek to work less and maximize their earnings while minimizing their time commitment and others will seek to work constantly striving for the maximum paycheck.

There are always guys out there lurking for every last buck they can make. Grabbing that extra job by always volunteering, always taking the OT, some even running around other crews on pool jobs to grab an extra turn each month.

Unfortunately, this also results in a lot of pressure on the crews to pu***he limits.

I expect to see new efforts by management to focus on one man crews and technology including RCL and train control technologies of various types to make this a reality. If it works, there will be less need to hire additional workers and the existing players may be able to get a bit more than what they get now, if they play their cards wisely and respect that fact that no human can live on variable hours 24/7/365 call without fatigue being a serious and real problem.

LC