The weird thing is that I’m part of the “new generation” but am probably less connected to it than you are! Though, as someone who has done 3D modeling work, I’m not certain if a scratchbuilt station is any more difficult than a digital one…
Still, I try to engage folks the way that I can.
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I just have no interest in toy trains, regardless of how nice or detailed the scenery and structures are around them. There are a some highly detailed 3-rail layouts, but to me it’s almost a different hobby than scale model railroading. If anything, I’m more interested in related hobbies like 1:87 scale vehicles or live steam, which I also view as separate but related hobbies to scale model railroading.
People continue to bring this up without thinking about the realities and practicalities of battery powered trains. Large scale (G and Fn3) are converting to battery-radio control because in those scales, all of the downsides of the more expensive electronics, more complex installs, and need to charge batteries are outweighed by the difficulty of wiring an outdoor layout and then trying to keep the tracks clean, especially in more humid climates with seasons like the Northeastern US.
However, for indoor scales, people fail to think about the realities of battery radio compared to the relative simplicity of track-based DCC wiring. You have to charge all of your locomotives somehow, if you’re using Li-on batteries, you have a huge fire risk, which is a non-starter IMO, and after 5-10 years, those batteries will be useless, and will require you to go and replace them. Then, if you’re hosting an op session, you’d better have all those batteries charged up, as now you have more devices to run out of batteries, but unlike throttles, where you can simply replace dead batteries in about 30 seconds, you have locomotives that have to be recharged. Meanwhile, with DCC, you just turn it on and it works.
Even without all the problems operating and maintaining such a system, just the installation alone is mind-boggling. Imagine having 50 locomotives (I’ve operated on layouts with well north of 200 locomotives) and having to install receivers and batteries in each one, just to avoid some track wiring which wouldn’t take nearly as long. Instead of wiring the tracks once, now you have to wire in a battery and receiver into every single locomotive. Good luck with your HO 44 tonner or Hi-rail truck or whatever that has DCC in it today.
This is just factually untrue. For anything resembling the same level of functionality, DCC has orders of magnitude less wiring. The top 5% of the most sophisticated DCC systems that are either modeling fully functional CTC systems or are used for automation with computer software running the trains are something like half the complexity that a DC block system would be on the same layout. And DCC systems are getting relatively simpler to wire.
In the world of technology in 2025, I have a hard time calling a technology that’s been in use for 32 years a “fairly new technology”. In fact, one layout I operate on has been using DCC since 1993.
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I think there are a lot of great things going on in the hobby, although it’s still hard to newbies to start out, as there is such a soup of information out there without a lot of clarity of how to find out what you’re interested in, how to plan a good layout, and DCC basics (which half the people who use DCC still don’t seem to understand).
3D printing is really cool, as is laser cutting and Cricut. People are making new, better models than ever before.
The models themselves have gotten much more detailed, although I think the market has gone a bit overboard at this point, with models where the details seem to come flying off as soon as you touch them.
The biggest areas where the hobby is progressing is prototype modeling and prototypical layout design, as well as operations. It’s a slow road, as many parts of the country still don’t have a well-developed operations culture, and many layouts don’t really do a good job modeling the movement of trains, but modeling the movement of cars and getting people into switching is much more fun than running trains around in circles.
The ProtoThrottle is an amazing innovation, as are more realistic sound decoders, which are really elevating the realism of switching operations. Locomotives run smoother than ever, and tying that all together allows you to get a lot more out of a smaller space, which is good for modelers who don’t have a ton of space to build a basement empire.
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Wait, since when is a 32-year-old technology not fairly new? By my standards, 40 years is the cutoff point. After that, it could be considered to be decently old. But 1985 and up is still pretty new.
Also, please don’t dismiss serious modeling as “toy trains”. Let me say this: a layout that is little more than a circle is more toylike than a three-rail layout with point-to-point realistic operation, however realistic the track itself may be.
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I think what we’re talking about is future advancements, which means there’s a little dreaming of what could be. What you describe as problems are problems – right now. They may not be problems in ten or fifteen years.
Is there a risk? Yes, but very little. The hundreds of millions of cell phones, tools, heart pacemakers, etc. being used in the U.S. for the past years have caused very few fires. For model railroads, I imagine there’s a much bigger risk of fire from improper house wiring than would be from batteries.
As I said earlier, one of the proposed charging methods would involve sections of powered track to fast recharge the batteries.
As far as having to change all the locomotives, yes and no. It’s no different than many modelers who are gradually switching from DC to DCC. Right now they have a whole bunch of DC locos waiting to get decoders. I didn’t have that problem, since I just started about seven years ago. I wired the layout for DCC, and I didn’t buy any locomotives that weren’t DCC.
If there were good battery operated locomotives, people starting a new layout may move that direction.
Remember, the point of the thread is where do we believe the hobby is going.
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Excellent point! 
It’s 2025, and technology moves fast. The original one-way DCC standard is a legacy technology at this point. Even some of the modern DCC systems like ESU ECoS and Roco Z21 have been around in their modern form for around a decade.
If people enjoy it, great, I am just not personally interested in toy trains. I’m interested in scale modeling. I view toy trains the same way I view collecting baseball cards or building military models, or birding, or one of a thousand other hobbies and activities that I’m sure people enjoy but have no interest to me and my hobby of scale model railroading.
There actually is a clear path forward in the train control world. Most DCC systems in use today are basically 30ish year old technology that’s been slightly repackaged with very minor updates. Meanwhile, modern systems like ESU ECoS, Roco Z21, YaMoRC YD7010, and of course the TCS CS-105 have multi-bus support, RailCom, and Wi-Fi/Ethernet, while new entrants to the market that aren’t fully modern in the same way are providing some really low-cost ways to get into the hobby, particularly the DCC-EX CS1B.
You look at what a fully built out ESU ECoS can do compared to an NCE system, and it’s night and day. Although clearly targeted at automated layouts, LoDi offers another peek into the future of DCC.
I trust Samsung and Apple to put lithium-ion batteries into things. I don’t trust some small model railroad company. There is also the issue of physical damage to batteries that can make them go into a thermal runaway condition, and I don’t trust myself not to damage them jamming them into models.
So you’re back to powering your track. Why not just use DCC?
Switching from DC to DCC has nothing to do with the issue of charging your locomotives. Charging locomotives for an op session is a non-starter. Imagine having to track down and charge 50 locomotives. It would be even more fun on large layouts where there can be far more than that on the track at any given time.
And now, say those batteries are lasting 7 years. If you have 70 locomotives, you’re basically ripping apart a locomotive and spending $30 replacing it’s battery almost every month. Sounds like a whole lot of fun- NOT.
Anyone advocating for the widespread use of dead rail in scales smaller than G/Fn3 clearly has not thought through the practicality of it.
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I understand that you are not interested in three rail. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is you dismissing model railroads as toy train sets.
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If you want to look at the future of DCC and related technologies, look at RailCom, and various CAN bus-based networks, whether proprietary like Roco’s CAN bus or ESU’s ECoSLink, or the NMRA LCC standard.
LCC also has the ability to run over a variety of physical layers, so you can route it over TCP/IP like the CS-105 does for a standards-based throttle network. Soon, TCS is coming out with large scale LCC receivers that will allow for standards-based large scale battery-radio applications, where battery-radio makes sense and with compatibility with LCC-based throttles can can also be used with LCC DCC systems like the CS-105 or MRC’s upcoming Nexxt in smaller scales.
LCC is a huge step forward, as it’s a single standard for layout feedback and control, as well as a throttle network, and LCC-CAN is a single physical bus that carries both the LCC-CAN itself, as well as the DCC booster drive circuit. An event-driven network is a paradigm shift from previous buses and networks that were largely designed as dumb I/O to get to and from a program on a PC (which LCC can also do if desired).
I don’t consider 3-rail O gauge to be model railroads. Likewise, I don’t consider American Flyer S gauge to be model railroads either. 2ros/Ow5 and Proto:48 are model railroads in O scale.
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And yet they are sometimes much more realistic than two rail model railroads. Oh, and are you confining Frank Ellison’s Delta Lines to the toy bin? Because the Delta Lines was O Scale and used three rails…
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I think I was misunderstood on this.
Powering a section of track to charge a locomotive is not the same as wiring it for DC or DCC. The locomotive is moving under it’s own power, not relying on track power and all the problems track power brings with it.
Track down 50 locomotives? Why? Before the op session, those locomotives can be parked on the power siding to charge. With the predicted fast charging, those 50 locomotives would be ready for the session in an hour.
Remember also we’re not talking about today’s batteries. We talking about and dreaming about a future development in battery power. I realize the limitations right now. There’s no way to fit today’s batteries into today’s N locomotives. But that could change if some predicted battery changes take place.
I mentioned changing DC locomotives to DCC locomotives because you mentioned this:
Changing DC locomotives to DCC locomotives is not difficult, but it also has some issues. I believe the same would be true for changing DC or DCC locomotives to battery power. Is it something I would want to do? No. But someone new entering the hobby and heading the new direction of battery powered trains probably would be buying new locomotives anyway.
I’m on the road all day tomorrow, and right now I don’t like posting from a phone. I can check back later in the week from my laptop.
Thanks for a good discussion!
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Now you’ve got a bunch of sections of tracks wired in various places on the layout AND you have to install batteries in all your locomotives. You’ve just made 10x the work of just wiring the layout for DCC in the first place.
What if they outlaw on the main when the clock stops? Now what?
Maybe battery technology gets 2x as good. Even 3x or more. But you still have the fundamental problem that you have to install the batteries in every locomotive and then replace them every so many years.
But with DCC, you can put a tiny motor-only decoder into a locomotive, or you can go all out with ESU LokSound V5, but those can run together on the same layout. Putting a battery in takes up space that you now can’t use for a better speaker or more weight, two things which are far more useful than a battery powered train. All for what? 10x the work compared to DCC?
DCC also provides constant track power, which is great for “dumb” circuits like passenger coach lighting, cars with sound, EOTs, etc, that can pull power from the rails, and it can be used for detection with resistor wheelsets.
Battery power is and will remain a tiny niche in the indoor scales. Where the upsides of battery outweigh the downsides is in outdoor large scale, and that’s why you see battery radio there, and that’s where it will continue to develop and evolve.
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I’ve been in a number of debates about battery power on another forum, and the common thread I see is that people make it seem like DCC wiring is somehow hard and time consuming while simultaneously completely discounting all the work both for installation and ongoing operation and maintenance involved in battery power.
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As far as 3d printing. I haven’t seen much but the stuff I’ve seen still looks clunky to me And there is no better detailing process than applying fine wire details. If 3d printing can get that fine with the plastic material, great, but until then, I’ll take modern tooled injection molded models with wire details. And until then, it just seems like a different way to build a plastic model.
Agreed about operations. I’m sure there has always been prototype operations modeling, but it just seems that there might be a higher percentage of model train enthusiasts more seriously concerned about operations than ever. But I could be wrong about that.
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Well, I’m not sure I meant that quite that literally, but you might be surprised. I’ve helped wire a few large DCC layouts, how many advanced DC systems on large layouts have you built? Or operated on?
Have you ever heard the names Ed Ravenscroft, Paul Mallery, Bruce Chubb or Linn Westcott? More importantly are you familiar with any of their work in advanced DC cab control or signal systems for DC layouts?
25 years ago, using pioneering work from all of these men, I developed an Advanced DC Cab Control System with the following features:
- Wireless radio walk around throttles - up to 10 fully independent channels
- Full voltage pulse width modulation speed control
- Simple easy to use throttles that can be operated by feel, keeping you eyes on the train
- One button route control of turnouts thru most interlockings
- Detection, signals, CTC operation with a dispatcher
- OR, optional walk around tower operation controlled by the operators
- Automatic Train Stop for violated red signals
- Full brightness headlights that come on before the train move
- In CTC mode engineers simply control their train - no block toggles, no turnouts to control
- 50% of the blocks are automated based on turnout position
- Turnout controls are repeated on tower panels and the CTC panel
- Route selection also restores other turnouts to their default as needed
- All turnouts return to default on layout start up
- Cab assignments/block authority also controlled with push buttons, duplicated on the CTC panel and tower panels
- Wiring is made simpler by decentralizing control elements
- Inductive detection not in the propulsion circuit
- Supports LED or incandescent signals
- Separate 4 amp (or larger if desired) power supply for each throttle
And all of this is done with no computers or processors, and just a few off the shelf solid state devices. The rest is done with LED lighted pushbuttons and relays.
The limitations?
- No sound - if I wanted sound I would have switched to DCC 25 years ago
- No consisting - well DC locos all go the same direction the track tells them to
- No speed matching - never needed that in the 27 years before DCC - most of my trains are powered by 2-4 powered units
- No head on collisions
- No automatic reverse loops - but we do semi-automate them
Signaling is based on providing interlocking/CTC signals and approach signals - even most large layouts don’t really have room for or need for permissive block signals.
No matter how you control a DCC layout, if you have detection, signals/CTC, and powered turnouts, you still have all the same input/output connections that I do. You still have to wire the detectors/feeders for each block, the wires to the signals, the switch machines.
Maybe you have control panels, maybe not, maybe you use computer screens - I like control panels and display panels that tell me where hidden trains are.
I build my hard wired logic panels on the bench and then just make those connections - you buy little black boxes, make those connections and program stuff - both are a lot of work.
The system integrates the propulsion, signaling and turnout control into one system. This saves hardware and wiring.
I don’t expect anyone to do what I do - BUT - my system and a fully solid state version developed by a fellow modeler I know, have been installed on multiple layouts, some of which have been in service for over 20 years.
I am currently building new layout after a move a few years back. When things are up an running you are welcome to come see how easy DC operation can be.
Since I don’t know you, and I doubt you know much about my control system, I’m going to let the “factually untrue” thing slide…
In a younger life, I took old relay based industrial control systems and converted them to programmable controller code - but of course that technology has advanced a lot too.
Sheldon
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And again, we’re talking past each other. Don’t change any locomotives. Don’t do anything but run trains the way you want.
You can run your DCC system you want. Others can run the DC system they want. New modelers may have the choice to pick either of those systems, or they may feel they want to try a battery system. They will be able to buy locomotives with the batteries installed. They can run two wires to one section of track and that’s it.
You’re limiting our discussion to what can be done today. I’m talking about what may be possible in the future.
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Well I agree, the whole battery thing seems way too fussy - but so is dropping buss wire connections every 6 feet…
In my life as an electrical project manager and control wiring designer we did not measure installation complexity based on feet of wire, we counted connections.
My new layout will have about 1600’ of track. With DCC that is over 500 rail to wire connections and over 500 drop to buss connections.
My layout has about 40 blocks, each requires only one feeder - or 160 connections. I can hook up a lot of relays with those other 840 connections.
Sheldon
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Today.
In the future maybe not. Maybe much less fussy than DC or DCC is today.
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Very true, but I’m interested in right now. I’m not interested in investing in a new way to control my trains. The control system I have works very well.
I don’t mind wiring…
Sheldon
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I am too.
But the topic of the thread was where the hobby might be headed in the future.
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