I am not new here but usually avoid the passenger side since it is a drag on the entire industry and most of the posters have no sense of the real world or of history. You are one of the few exceptions.
There is so much nonsense and blather on the passenger side that I am as a sparrow in a hurricane, so why should I waste my breath trying to educate those who don’t want to know the truth, or do not care if they do know?
Pasenger trains remain the main contact of the industry with the USA public despite the small numbers of actual passengers. Positive contact. There is lots of negative contact: grade crossings, without consideration that mostly the railroad was there first.
Without useful passenger trains, there really would be mostly negative contact. How many class I’s run UP steam program and how many towns actually get Santa Claus specials?
The American public, not railfans, but the general public, want a national passenger train system, as some sort of security blanket back-up. Like hospitals. “Hope I don’t have to use it but I want it there in case!” And they are willing to pay for it.
The average auto driver pays only about 57% of the actual costs of his driving. The rest is made up by taxpayers. The figure would be a lot higher if we factored in the cost of mideast wars to keep the Saudi and other Gulf nations oil flowing.
PNWRMNM - Please explain how the passenger side is a “drag” on the entire industry. I’m in the industry and remember when the passenger train (particularly the UP-MILW “Cities” trains) were the main attraction.
I’m not sure that the lack of passenger service after 1967 had a negative effect on Frisco, Monon or other freight-only operations and it definitely was favorable to their bottom line.
I explained why ATK is a drag on the industry in previous posts in this thread.
Dave,
I see no evidence that ATK is a positive point of contact with the public for the industry. It is a source of complaint from ATK itself and from those individuals who have something negative happen on their trip.
I too was in the industry and I too remember when the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited were things of beauty and pride. ATK destroyed all that the day they took over. Explain to me how being abused by one “special” customer translates into carrier pride.
Mac…lack of rail passenger service has a negative effective on many communities’ economies…it is a “quality of life” factor. There are also some communities that the only saving grace is that there is a passenger train (long distance train) as in the case of the Empire Builder and such routes. You should actually read back through the many posts, threads, and forums on this subject just on this site. The general population has said time and time again they would ride trains if the proper service was provided (proper service is the key, not just running a train or trains) witness Downeast service in Maine, witness a lot of Calafonia and Northwest programs, witness virtually any service designated “corridor” of some kind. Only the still stubborn highway lobby holds on to the feelings you have about Amtrak and passenger trains. But enlightened truck and highway managements (government planners at all levels) are regarding rail as a way of helping move freight and people in the furture.
To the extent the freight carriers pay attention to the bonuses the real world practical effect is to delay freight trains since the individual dispatcher’s incentive is to avoid the black mark on his record caused by a decision to advance a freight against a passenger train in a situation that carries ANY risk of delay to the passenger train.
How is my forced low rate rent of a bedroom in your house incorrect? I will be happy to move into your house on these “Amtrak” terms, marginal rent and rent my own place out at market rent.
Mac
You must be new around here. Passenger trains are inherently good, and anything done to interfere with them – not fund them, not give them priority and let freight traffic park on a siding, compare them to stage coaches (or clipper ships! The remark about clipper ships is incitement to a good scolding) – all of those things are intrinsically bad.
As it has been said by others around here, you get what you pay for. Amtrak pays some marginal rate for the use of the tracks, and Amtrak sits on sidings. Amtrak incurs the cost of owning the railroad (NEC), and Amtrak offers frequent, on-time service.
There is another angle on this, that of “slots.” It has been said by some defenders of the freight railroads that Amtrak’s time-keeping problems on long-distance trains are of their own making. The host railroad allocates a “slot” where the passenger train is free to run fast free of freights. If Amtrak misses that slot, owing to maintenance problems, lack of a crew, whatever, then Amtrak gets to lump along with the general flow of freight traffic.
Don Oltmann, you once told us you were going to explain thi
With .01% market share ATK is not serious transportation. Sure it is nice to be able to get out of Wolf Creek Montana in February, but why should BNSF pay for that capability by being forced to accept less than market rates for the capacity the Empire Builder absorbs?
If we carred about effecient effective service the Congress would require that ATK pay market rates for the capacity it uses as a start. That would cause the carriers’ to view ATK as a valuable customer rather than a herd of leaches. Then Congress would abolish the ATK monopoly and cut off funds for everything but the NEC. Everything outside the NEC would die overnight.
If at some point in time real demand for rail passenger service developed, then anyone could go the railroad and purchase the capacity to operate however many trains they thought would make money. Let the market rule!
No one is going to do this until the passenger market changes substantially. ATK is just a 12 inch to the foot model railroad and welfare program that absorbs capacity the carriers could otherwise use to get freight off the highways, which if you asked the question, IS something the general public would like to see. Best of all “we the people” would not wasting Billions of dollars per year on the dead horse we know as ATK…
Mac: I agree with most of your post. However: 1. There are several routes outside the NEC that are moving in the right direction and would probably survive the end of ATK. 2. The market, though a useful method of allocation, is not the universal “be all end all” in every human endeavor.
You are correct there are some cases where the market does not work. As a general proposition the Federal Government, with a limited role, was created to deal with the most important of these, National Defense.
The problem is that the politicians seem to be incapable of resisting the temptation to spend the people’s money to benefit some identifiable subgroup. As a result we have government run amok and interfearing in all mannner of markets that would work perfectly well except for government interfearance. Transportation is one of a multitude of areas where that is true. The problem is people think the way it is, after 150 years of meddling, is the was it has to be, or the only way it can be.
I see no reasons for the politicians to change their behavior short of “we the people” yelling loudly and continuously STOP, STOP, GET BACK TO THE THINGS ONLY YOU CAN DO. Fortunately I see some reason to hope on this front due to the multiple Govt. budget crises, but I will not hold my breath waiting for a retreat to things that only the Government can realistically do.
It is all about national public attitude as shaped by the oil and highway lobby post WWII especially. Other countries use passenger trains because the trains and the service is provided. Large urban areas in the US use commuter trains because the service is provided. Corridors use train in the US because service is provided. Where there is no service there is no train, no riders, no support. While its not a “field of dreams” propsoition, it is a field of dreams proposition when service, not running trains, when service is provided. Until we learn that the oil, gas, and highway lobby is not all there is, that they choke us every which way we can be choked, we will never have real passenger rail service, service that is and not just running trains.
Perhaps the answer lies in those three sentences. Perhaps the problem is continuing to try to have a national system paid for by the federal government, when a national long distance system is impractical and not competitive. Cities, metro areas, states and regions are where passenger rail transport is thriving and growing. That is where the creative ideas are - North Carolina, Virginia, Maine, Illinois - to name a few on the state level. And that is where the money probably needs to come from.
I have disagreed entirely with everything the Halburton administration said and did except the concept of regional rail. There are regions where intercity travel is a must but because of various commuter agencies not working with each other, it doesn’t happen and Amtrak is not empowered to address the situation in earnerst. After that there are regions which have close relations with neighboring regions so that there is an opportunity for interconnections between and among regions. I am in favor in long distance trains travel…but it should’nt neccessarily be between Chicago and San Franciso or Seattle but rather a train linking services of different regions. And my favorite mantra: provide a service not just run a train or trains. Amtrak suffers from too much government fed parochialisms by Congress and not by service planniing by transportation specialists. Oh, the specialist are there: they are the frustrated ones.