So I’ve noticed more and more recently that I’m seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys…the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum? Or is it a sign that our hobby is gasp SHIFTING?
Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place?
Does this make any sense? I’ve just noticed this over the past few years
I think they are still here. I know some have been kicked off or asked to leave but I gather they have changed their name and now lurk around spying on all of us.
At the risk of causing some offense, those who are hyper-particular about details have probably found that they are peeing into a windstorm on this forum. It isn’t right, nor is it wrong…this forum is what most of its membership wants it to be, and that tends to be beginner to middlin’, with some very kind and patient masters willing to pop in once in a while and attempt to encourage us to exceed our grasp once in a while.
“A man’s reach should exceed his grasp, or what’s a heaven for?”
So who do you want to answer your specific question about a prototype? Do you want somebody who has attempted to learn as much as he can or somebody taking a guess?
That is the thing. If I want an answer that is really well documented that is who I would expect the answer from…someone who knows their stuff, someone who has investigated the subject matter to the fullest and knows how to communicate this information well. But with a lot getting tired of being bounced on for perceived issues of communication we are going to see even less of them…
I wish some of them were not beaten into the ground for things that some deem troublesome…it may just be that they do feel somewhat defensive anymore…
Rivet counters are a necessary part of the hobby. While they may seem boring or snobish to the average modeler, they are probably responsible for the quality and realism we see in many of today’s offerings. Otherwise we’d have trains similar to tin plate.
Another rivet counter still here! I only share my opinions if asked. It is a shame (but his perogative) that the OP is ready to settle for medeocrity. I was tought to be the best that I could be and if I was going to do something, do the best that I can often that requires counting rivets.
I have to say that I think it is rather sad that the term “Rivet Counter” has taken on such a pejorative connotation. IMO there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a person seeking tremendous fidelity and accuracy in their modelling.
The issue is not so much that a person seeks to attain this level of perfection, but when a person uses their knowledge to put another down. Frankly you don’t have to be a “Rivet counter” to do that. In fact one might say that this very thread aims to belittle modellers that are trying to attain spectacular levels of accuracy.
While RTR products may “lessen” the amount of scratch-building done these days, I don’t see that it will ever take the “prototypical aspect” out of MRRing. A number of folks enjoy this aspect of the hobby - including myself - as not everything that was ever made or constructed for the RRs is available on the market.
Building a structure from scratch or from a kit bash brings a high level of satisfaction and accomplishment. You could liken it to the music or literary world. Why are music and books still being written today since there are so many genres, pieces, and songs written up to this point? Because humans like and enjoy being creative. They write, they build, they invent because they were created with that desire; albeit some show this trait more than others.
While the “know-it-all” aspect" of prototypical modeling can have its negative side-effects, prototypical modeling spurs some folks to create things that they might not otherwise consider. And, as it has been pointed out before, it’s the prototype modelers and “rivet counters” that bring us the wonderful RTR models that we see beautifully displayed in our LHSes.
Having said all that, I ultimately see this thread going down the same via that some of the other locked threads from today have gone because it’s just a spin off of the same conversation. Aren’t there any other topics worth musing over - i.e. ones leading to productive discussion rather than kvetching and type-casting? [sigh]
did you not just lock the “someone going to flame me now” thread? And now we’re going to have multiple pages of the same stuff?
I personally don’t see the problem with anyone who tries to excel in some aspect of this hobby, be it DCC decoder installation, DC return loop wiring methods, ability to identify model locomotive air horns in a single glance, or even counting rivets on a boxcar. If I run into someone like that, and the topic interests me, I’ll listen in the hopes of learning something. If I’m not interested I’ll walk away.
What I fail to understand is why folks take offence at anyone who suggests that something could be made, or done, better. Unless they have their private parts nailed to the floor, they can choose to walk away. Why continually carp about it here?
Two approaches to referencing prototype practices:
“The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.) You might try that…”
“That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don’t do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity…”
The first says, “Here’s a suggestion.” The second says, “My way or the highway.” The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum.
Like Wayne, I am very critical when counting my own rivets. However, I’d rather offer chocolate, not be abrasive. As for being around, check my post count and stand assured that I don’t plan to leave for anywhere.
All the grumbled crumugeonly old faa-rt rivet counters I had encountered in my younger days are by now likely past on by now. The simple fact is that this hobby really isn’t getting younger in the majority of its practitioners. I suspect that’s one prime reason your seeing less of the dreaded RCs.
Seen any examples of the last kind around here during the last year or two?
I have seen people offering suggestions, with variable amounts of diplomacy (including close to none), but I can’t say I have noticed any obvious cases of anyone declaring that it is "my way or the highway*.
There may be quite a number of us who deem rivet counting as evil, albeit a necessary one. Without those among us, who count the rivets, our model locos still would look like this:
instead of this:
IMOH, we have to attribute today´s presence of well-detailed and excellently performing models to a large degree to the rivet counters, pushing the industry to improve the quality.
Above example shows Marklin´s class 44 of Deutsche Bundesbahn, the first model built in the 1950´s, the second picture showing today´s execution. Marklin, for many years, has shown a strong resistance to re-design and improve their models - only the loss of marketshare at the advent of new brands like Roco in the 1980´s facilitated their change of mind.
I am not praising the RC´s, but where would be without their strive towards even better models?
