So I’ve been having all sorts of problems because I don’t know what DCC IS and I didn’t realize it. Thanks for telling me. I’ll keep my eyes open for all those issues. When they crop up, I’ll take a crash course in what DCC IS and have you to thank!
Now I’m going to go back to running my trains using the NCE controller for the DCC system I don’t understand, and I’m going to enjoy myself.
Only if they already own the legacy proprietary radio base station. Otherwise it takes several throttles to break even on NCE as I calculated in a previous post.
And for someone just starting out they could buy a significantly less expensive system in the first place to use with the Wi-Fi throttles.
And that’s without getting into value where the Wi-Fi throttles handily win again.
where was that?
seems you’re arguing you should buy a porche because it performs better than a Chevy, even though you just need to get to work?
Is it cheaper, though? And what makes it better? To be honest, there is, now that I think of it, a decent chance that I would simply use a corded throttle.
I’m glad that you’re not that nitpicky. But, this brings up a good point: what, exactly, do you consider to be a full-featured DCC system?
I have a friend who is a realtor and every time we see him he is commenting on what our house is worth and asking me what I think it is worth. I tell him that I have no idea what it is worth, don’t care and will worry about that when it comes time to sell. This thread reminds me of him and makes my eyes glaze over. My NCE system does everything that is required and does not screw up. If it ever blows up and I need to replace it maybe then I’ll take a look at what is out there. Oh ya, my truck is 25 years old and still runs and looks great.
When you over think the plumbing, it is easier to stop up the drain.
Regards, Chris
The more I read this thread the more my brain hurts!
Regards, Chris
Somewhere up there. NCE ProCab-R is $230 but the RB02 is $164. The UWT-100 is $300 but works with your existing Wi-Fi network or you can use an old router to set up an isolated network if desired.
Not a great analogy since the UWT is cheaper for one or two throttles. And they’re great throttles, so once you have one or two, your operators will probably buy their own and bring them.
If you’re going to drop the dough on a physical throttle, why not get the best? Or if budget is a concern, then why are you spending $230 on a dedicated throttle when Engine Driver on Android is free and WiThrottle on iPhone is $10.
For the UWT-100 specifically:
Note both legacy proprietary and modern systems can fit these definitions.
What? My plumbing doesn’t care if I think about it, it clogs up if I take big massive dumps.
Fair enough, if these are what you consider to be necessary to have a full-featured DCC system.
i find the TCS system more expensive
199.95 1 0.00 199.95 PowerCab
199.95 1 0.00 199.95 lt-50
251.35 1 149.95 101.40 dt602/db210
299.90 1 99.95 199.95 cab06/PowerCab
452.67 1 219.95 232.72 uwt-50/cs-105
532.67 1 299.95 232.72 uwt-100/cs-105
599.75 4 99.95 199.95 cab06/PowerCab
681.38 1 219.99 101.40 359.99 dt602d/dcs240+/ur93
851.15 5 149.95 101.40 dt602/db210
1332.47 5 219.95 232.72 uwt-50/cs-105
1561.34 5 219.99 101.40 359.99 dt602d/dcs240+/ur93
1732.47 5 299.95 232.72 uwt-100/cs-105
i don’t see that
you’re arguiing what features a new system, such as TCS, should do, and I agree. But those aren’t the same points someone buying a system considers.
almost ever statement you make is about WiFI, but how many small layouts need wireless throttles? How many modelers can afford the expense of wireless throttles?
i have a small layout, 12x30’ and don’t need wireless. But its less expensive for the the club to purchase 10 DT602D than use the TCS system
The whole system is slightly more expensive, but close. For just adding wireless throttles to an existing system, the UWTs are cheaper for the first two throttles compared to NCE.
Math does. Two ProCab-Rs are $230 per plus $164 for the RB02 is $624 versus $600 for the UWTs. It’s a bigger gap for just adding one throttle.
But my bigger point here is that with the UWTs someone building a layout or getting into the hobby could buy a much more cost effective system like YaMoRC, ESU, or DCC-EX and add UWTs and they would be that much cheaper for a better throttle and generally better system.
So I look at it this way. If you want the double-ended consisting, get TCS. It’s almost the same price, and a far better, more capable system. If you don’t care about that, there are tons of options. You can get a more capable system for less money from YaMoRC, ESU, or even DCC-EX. DCC-EX is rapidly gaining popularity because it offers a lot of bang for the buck.
The nice part about Wi-Fi is that it’s infinitely scalable. Start with a DCC-EX and an Android phone, and if you want to add a UWT, add a UWT. If you end up building an empire, get a TCS or ESU system and continue using the same throttles with it.
Any layout longer than the length of a throttle cord needs wireless. Yes, Digitrax is somewhat cheaper. If you really want the cheapest thing out there, the UT6Ds are less, and they’re nice little throttles. I don’t like using an encoder knobby, but plenty of people like them.
However, I’d argue that’s still not a good reason to buy a Digitrax system. Their throttles will work with YaMoRC, ESU, Roco, and TCS systems. And for clubs, and even private home layouts, bring your own throttle is the best way to do it. If people want to use an app, fine. If they want to use a UWT, fine.
They don’t have a huge profit margin. That type of throttle is just expensive to make. And yes, for the budget modeler, they are a lot, but I also find it amusing when people complain about the cost of having the best DCC gear for whatever it is that they want to do, and then they have tens of thousands of dollars of locomotives in the yard. Not saying this is necessarily the case with you, but it’s common in the hobby.
If you have JMRI up when operating, you have access to various diagnostic tools depending on the system, i.e. slot monitor for LocoNet, cab monitor for NCE, etc. But mainly, the point is WiThrottle. When people come to an op session, if they have a Wi-Fi throttle, they can connect it. If they want to use a phone, they can do that. If a throttle breaks, [almost] anyone has an extra in their pocket. If there aren’t enough throttles, [almost] anyone has an extra in their pocket.
What non model railroad applications use NCE Radio (which has lag issues) or Digitrax Duplex (which has range/reliability issues, not so much lag)? Or CVP radio or MRC radio? These are all model railroad specific systems.
If all the layouts you operate on have Wi-Fi, then you’ll always have the same UI/UX on your throttles, regardless of whether the layout uses Digitrax, NCE, or something else.
I don’t know that I’ve used my UWTs on anything other than DCC, but at least the capability is there, as it’s not tied to a DCC system, it can interface with… whatever. There’s probably stuff other than DCC, Marklin (which can co-exist with DCC on the CS-105), WiFiTrax, DCC-EX (DCC and DC) and Lionel that work with them too.
I’m not sure that I’d sign up for a 3-Rail O layout, but if it were one of these fine scale highly detailed 3-Rail O layouts, I might just for something out of my normal purview.
You should operate on mine if I ever get the yard done.
Mine is single level and well lit. But what about when you do operate on a layout with day/night lighting? That’s not an electrical failure, that’s a layout feature. Not that the built-in flashlight on the UWT is that big of a deal, but it’s a nice to have.
It’s a lot better to have a place to attach a strap than not to. Some people have rigged them up to neck lanyards or to clip to their ops apron.
I understand what you mean. I, for one, purchased a $250 locomotive once and was rather displeased that I was “spending like a drunken modeler”, to paraphrase a common phrase. However, I have no way of justifying $500 for a throttle.
I can see the advantages in many situations, however, there are many people who do solo operating sessions and thus would see little to no improvement with WiThrottle.
I wasn’t referring to model railroad radio systems being used in a non-model railroad setting, just radio control systems in general. Sorry for the confusion.
Oh, I see what you mean. The only issue is that there are no other layouts within a considerable radius that I go to operating session on.
I do understand what you’re saying here. By the way, my Lignite Subdivision has aspirations to be a super-detailed railroad that have been dashed by the fact that highly detailed locomotives cost a fortune, and I have no fortunes to spend. As such, I use “toy” trains (I do NOT like referring to them as such, but that is neither here nor there). I am constantly surprised with the indestrucability of them, and they are frequently capable of looking just as realistic–if not more–than superdetailed locomotives if in the right setting and if one does not choose the most ridiculous Prewar electrics possible (not that I dislike such locomotives or anything, they just are among the less-realistic looking Semiscale locos out there).
That might be fun. Tell you what–you can join a virtual operating session on my railroad if I get one of these WiFi DCC systems and as soon as I finish the hump yard, lay the mainline, fix the helix, build the flyover, set up the staging yard, clean up the coal mine, build the oil siding, redo most of the wiring, finish building the hybrid computer control system, hook up the turnout control, jigger some cameras, pay off the rest of the investment on the house, buy myself an automobile, get promoted, etc… Seriously, though, a remote operating session sounds fun, I just have to wonder about how practical it would be. From what you’re saying, apparently it works well.
I haven’t been able to operate on such a layout–and I would not consider that to be a failure in any regards–but unless the room is so dark that one cannot make out anything (in which case I would be some what displeased) then I, at least, would have no trouble reading car lettering in O Scale. Too, it helps that I have essentially all the numbers of my loco fleet memorized and quite a few of my freight car numbers have also been committed to memory.
Oh, so they’re removable? I’ve seen far too many poorly-designed stuff (not model railroad) where enormously uncomfortable wrist straps are not removable without opening the case and, in at least one situation, cutting the strap.
The ProtoThrottle is not for everyone. But compared to the cost of other things in the hobby, they aren’t that crazy. I’ve actually calculated that because you get so much more operations out of a given sized layout that they save money because you can build a smaller layout, and that’s without even factoring in the cost of the space that the layout occupies.
Then it should be at least configured, even if it’s not always on during a solo op session. In a solo op session, it doesn’t really matter if you get interrupted, you can pick up later from the same point.
Then it’s not really relevant. There are plenty of RC systems with no perceptible lag, but they also are 1 to 1, not 20 or 30 to 1.
You could go to an ops event.
The throttles are the easy part. The trickier part is a reliable video chatting app that doesn’t try to filter all the sound out because it thinks its noise.
Now imagine you’re a guest operator who’s never operated there before, and a flashlight because necessary. I’ve found that layouts that do day/night ops almost always provide flashlights for operators, and I have a separate little one on my ops apron, so the utility of a flashlight on the UWT is questionable, but it’s literally two tiny LEDs, so as a matter of convenience to have it built in with already functioning batteries, why not?
Yeah, it comes separately in the box, you loop it through itself to attach. You can attach whatever type of lanyard you want, or some people have come up with other setups like a belt clip that they have adhered to the throttle.
I also recommend TCS. Converted home layout from Digitrax best thing I did. We also converted large (10 booster) club layout from NCE to TCS. NCE throttles are compatible although most of us prefer the TCS throttles.
I suppose, though, if I were doing this myself, I’d rather build a throttle. Still, if I can get more operations out of my space (and still do what I want) with just a better throttle, I want to see how!
Doesn’t it require hardware?
That may be true, but in my experience WiFi still crawls at the pace of a switcher.
And where, perchance, might I find one of those?
I’ll bet!
I can see the point there if one is using small scales (especially N) and the room is pretty dark, but this is, after all, my railroad which we are discussing.
In that case, I’m all for that. Having it like so is perfect.
By using fewer sidings, more car spots, lower speeds and momentum, you get more operations out of less layout.
In most cases, people would use the same DCC system for programming and for the layout, so they’d already have the interface set up for programming. In some cases, they might use a different system, so they’d need an interface for the layout system to use WiThrottle.
Most systems now come with USB and/or a network interface. Some older Digitrax systems require a LocoBuffer-USB, PR4, or similar as they don’t have it built in like the newer systems, and the older NCE Power Pro has a serial port, which technically is the interface built in, but since PCs haven’t had serial ports in probably two decades, you need a $20 USB to serial cable, unlike the new NCE PH5 that has USB built in, so you just take an old printer or USB hub cable and plug it in.
What? Wi-Fi is by far faster and more responsive than proprietary radio systems, and for model railroad control, you need in the range of kbps, whereas a good Wi-Fi system today is several hundred mbps.
Operatingsessions.com, through OpSIG, local clubs or NMRA divisions, there are a few ops events actually hosted by/affiliated with NMRA divisions.
I’m thinking traveling to op sessions.
Yeah, it’s a lot better than people screwing eye screws into the bottom of throttles. And it works with other options like lanyards, as it’s just a loop-through.
I have plenty of car spots on the existing sidings and thus need no less railroad, but lower speeds and momentum cannot be obtained (in my circumstances) from a better throttle.
That makes sense to me.
I’m sorry, this is just my experience. I have often found WiFi to be unimpressively slow and unpleasantly unreliable. Radio, on the other hand, I have found to be nearly instant. Oh, and while we’re discussing it, Bluetooth also lags somewhat too and is immensely fiddly.
Thanks for pointing that out! There doesn’t appear to be much in my area, though.
As I mentioned above, first there have to be operating sessions to travel to.
Plenty better!
[quote=“Engine_1988, post:220, topic:411047”]I have plenty of car spots on the existing sidings and thus need no less railroad, but lower speeds and momentum cannot be obtained (in my circumstances) from a better throttle.[/quote]\
It’s not the throttle per se, it’s the decoder, you can run high momentum and brake with some other throttles, but with ProtoThrottle it’s just so much more realistic and engaging.
Do you drive in a Yugo and they say that cars are terrible and slow and bikes are faster and better because you raced a carbon fiber road bike? Even that analogy is kind of bad because bikes have other properties that make them better for some applications like being small and not burning gas.
Wi-Fi is extremely fast and responsive, legacy proprietary radio systems are all over the place depending on where and how they are used.
We’re talking about feeding an 8kbps DCC bus with Wi-Fi that can handle hundreds of mbps of throughput with near-zero latency (at least relative to model trains).