Getting back to the original question. Neither one is inherently better looking than the other. Most kits and most RTR can have more detail added if desired.
One of the nice things today is that you an choose from so many options. Personally, I do some of all - scratchbuild, kit build, RTR, kitbash, and I’m planning some RTRbash. My main goal is a fairly large (600-900 sq ft) layout. To that end, I use a lot of RTR just to get going. But I like the other also.
I think one thing that’s been alluded to, but often overlooked in this hobby is that some of us are primarily model builders and some of us are primarily layout builders. For small layouts you can easily do both, but as the layout gets larger or the models get more detailed and proto48/64/87 most of us favor one over the other.
Howmus, nice job on that flat car BUT go back and read the original question. A Athearn flat car with a couple old John Deere tractors is a far cry from a highly detailed RTR model, lol. I always wondered who bought those things. Compare it to a Proto 2000 flat car instead.
It was just last year, that I could find blue box kits, at the hobby shop for under ten dollars. Spare me the economics lecture. The fact is, there are plenty of people that don’t have alot of spare cash these days. Go to a train show and notice how many people are looking for inexpensive freight cars.
The latest Athearn rtr cupola caboose is 24.95, with the decades old tooling. That same caboose was bought last year for 9.99. Now, I had to put it together, and add some clear window material. All I said was I miss having the choice.
As far as it being inexpensive, it always has been that way, if they chose that option. That factor was an attraction for newcomers too. Now, someone looks for a rtr caboose at 25 dollars and up. They don’t even get the under ten dollar option. What do you think the significant other or a parent,says about spending 10 vs. 25 bucks on a single car?
Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. To say that I am just wrong… Well , that is just silly!
Well, I was replying to the OPs question. And yes this may have been a poor example, but even the very best, most up to date, with the finest possible tooling, is not as good as a well made kit (in my eyes). Remember, “Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder”. All of you have the choice of what you want to run on your layouts… No question there. The hobby is many things to different people (as it should be). We all value things differently. The “Horrible” Hobbies flat car is all of about 6 years old. There will come a time it will be used as a door prize at one of our Division Meets… It is just so bad. It is carrying Waterloo Boy John Deere Tractors (presumably) to market on a flat car that was manufactured 5 years after John Deere stopped production of the tractor. It has molded in brake stuff, and the assembly for the tractors is also part of the mold… This car was in production until just a couple years ago. That said the Pocher Overland Passenger car at the top of the photo is over 50 years old, has been repainted, upgraded with Kadee couplers and trucks. It will stay in service on my Pike for a long time. It was given to me over 40 years ago by my late FIL. It is one of the truly Valuable models I have (to me anyway…)
For the most part, RTR does not interest me because for me (notice I didn’t say you or anyone else) they are boring! Yep, pure bori
Now that everyone has chosen up sides and smelled armpits, let me say this: I buy what fills a need for me. I don’t care what anyone else does for their model railroad gratification. Simply, there is no way I could (scratch build or kit build) tobuild up the fleet of Santa Fe grain cars that I have amassed from Exactrail in my lifetime. I don’t want to wait until I am on my deathbed to scratchbuild or even kitbuild that many cars.
On the other hand, models that would likely only be available in kits that I want are cars I will build. I don’t want to die with a bunch of unassembled kits on the shelves. I want to enjoy the layout, the operation and the engine/cars asap.
Which looks best? depends on the car, the manufacturer, etc. I remember several years finishing a scratchbult project that took many moons to complete. First run in a train, a car ahead derailed putting it and the scratchbuilt on the floor. The car ahead survived with damage. The scratchbuilt, nada.
I have been in this hobby since late 1950’s without a break. Have seen and met many of the so called shakers and movers, guess what, they put their pants on one leg at a time like me.
I am in the hobby first to satisfy my need, to earn praise and glory and trophies from others is a distant second.
Please excuse me for a moment. I’d like to give my opinion to the OP’s question. Thank you.
For me, it depends. It depends on how good of model the RTR is, and/or how good of job you did on the kit and how well detailed either are. That is if you are taking out the modifications that some do to either. Myself, I choose either based on how the individual item strikes me.
OK that’s all well and good BUT some of us have some health issues such as Cataracts or difficulty seeing glasses, lots of light or whatever. There are also issues related to living with shaky hands. It’s darned hard to put those tiny little screws in under such conditions.
I do agree that the “Craftsman” / “Scratch built” is provides a sense of accomplishment but as one gets older and begin to have health issues, one has to make some choices. No RR or settle for less perfection.
Just looked at a Branchline Berwick kit and a Exactrail RTR boxcar and the RTR looks better to me.And checked out a Intermountain 60 ft flat kit and the same RTR one looks better also.
It was just last year, that I could find blue box kits, at the hobby shop for under ten dollars. Spare me the economics lecture. The fact is, there are plenty of people that don’t have alot of spare cash these days. Go to a train show and notice how many people are looking for inexpensive freight cars.
Apparently those people aren’t figuring the cost of just getting to the train show and parking. The nearest train show to me is 75 miles away (as is the nearest good hobby shop). That’s a 150 mile round trip. IIRC, the last one I went to cost me $8 to get in and $5 for the privilege of parking. I don’t just figure gas cost either, but the full cost of driving (depreciation, wear and tear, insurance, gas, etc.), which for me, is about $0.45/mile. Lemme see. We have $13 to park and get in and 150 x $0.45, which equals $67.50. So far, that’s $80.50 and I haven’t even seen a caboose yet. Shoot, for that kind of money, I can get three $25 cabooses online and still pay for most of the shipping.
Even if I just calculate immediate out of pocket costs, the 30 mpg my car gets will take 5 gallons for a round trip. That’s $17.65 just to get to the hobby shop or show site (gas averages $3.53/gal where I live). Then there’s there’s the $13 for admission and parking at the show. That’s over $30 out of pocket just to get to the show on the off chance I can score a $10 BB caboose “kit” as the hobby shop doesn’t have any more. That $10 caboose isn’t looking so cheap now, especially since I can pick up my cell phone, call the hobby shop (which, by the way, will sell me that $25 caboose for $20 + tax + shipping) and get that $25 caboose for less than it would cost me to drive to a train show to get that $10 bargain.
It is true that going to a train show costs money, but I don’t factor in the gas and admissions fee (none of the shows I go to charges for parking). Why? Because I don’t go to train shows strictly as a substitute for the hobby shop, I go for fun, to watch trains run on layouts and for a fun day out. I have gone to train shows and not come away with anything or maybe only one item. If I didn’t buy something and sometimes I haven’t, how does that factor into the cost of a model train? It doesn’t if you don’t buy any.
CLEARLY there are RTR cars sold today which simply are difficult to match or rival from a kit unless you are a top shelf modeler. I look at the lovely Trailer Train flat cars I have from Walthers or the sweet covered hoppers from Tangent or Exact Rail. Heck, even the 5-bay rapid discharge coal hoppers or Thrall Gon’s have nice individual grab irons etc. I don’t have the patience or steady hand to add all those little items and have them come out looking so nice. This is really a no brainer.
Pastor Bob,
I get a good chuckle from reading your posts. If I’m ever in your neck of the woods in Kansas, and there isn’t tornado threatening to touch down, I’d love to come by and visit! In only about an hour my British fiancee is scheduled to touch down at Dulles airport. I’m trying to convert her into trains! She seems very open to it!
The purpose of going to a train show is for enjoyment. Anyone can do the math, and it’s always cheaper to sit home. It’ cheaper to have many items mailed to me. That’s not the point…at all.
That 10 or 20 bucks is what someone may have to spend on any given day. Not all of the time.
All this beancounter activity is a joke. By the way, in the early '70’s kits could be had easily for 2.00, so don’t lecture me with an inflated 1950’s price. Even train shows in the 80’s would have bb kits 5/ 10 and deals like that. LOL.
I have bought both and all I said was about how nice it was to have a choice. You argumentive types are missing the point. That’s why I really don’t hang much in forums. They just get silly!
It is true that going to a train show costs money, but I don’t factor in the gas and admissions fee (none of the shows I go to charges for parking). Why? Because I don’t go to train shows strictly as a substitute for the hobby shop, I go for fun, to watch trains run on layouts and for a fun day out. I have gone to train shows and not come away with anything or maybe only one item. If I didn’t buy something and sometimes I haven’t, how does that factor into the cost of a model train? It doesn’t if you don’t buy any.
I rarely buy things at train shows, nor do I consider them a substitute for a hobby shop. The fact remains, however, that there’s a cost associated with any activity. I don’t go to the hobby shop unless it’s incidental to visiting the grandkid closest to said hobby shop since the trip then has more than one purpose and the cost can be spread over multiple activities.
As for your question as how going to a train show and not buying anything factors into the cost of model railroad items, it’s this. It costs me about $30 out of pocket to go to a train show regardless of whether or not any item is purchased. It’s $30 that once spent, won’t be available for other purposes. That doesn’t mean that I won’t go ahead and do it, it’s just that I’m acutely aware that money is being spent. I’m a member of a regular monthly operating crew. It’s a 60 mile round trip and about $7 in gas at today’s prices. I enjoy it and consider it worth the money spent. However, I’m always aware there’s a cost associated with it (60 miles closer to needing new tires, the brakes done, a replacement vehicle, gas, etc.).
GP39,
I just searched for “Athearn kits” on eBay and found over 660 results, so there are still plenty on the market. Goodness knows there were hundreds of under-$10 Athearn BB’s at the Springfield Show last month. Please note that there were plenty left at the end of the show, too. If there was some huge demand for under-$10 cars, why aren’t they selling out at every train show?
At any rate, the Athearn RTR caboose does have some improvements over the old BB kits, namely new endrails & brake stand, smoke stack, windows, better painting & lettering, metal wheels, and couplers. So it’s not exactly the “same caboose”.
There are very few under-$10 cars anywhere these days, this is true. But then minimum wage is $7.25, gas is $3.31 a gallon, and milk is over $3.00 a gallon…
With your opinions, you are neither right nor wrong (that’s what my school teachers all said). However, you did not merely make your opinion known, you made a few non-opinion statements: “I see where the hobby and the manufacturers always want more of everything. They forget the roots of model railroading. It was generally inexpensive and the modeler had the choice to upgrade quality and costs when he could. Athearn has made a huge mistake, by stopping the blue box option.”
Um, no, model railroading was not “generally inexpensive”. That’s where you are dead wrong. It’s never been a poor man’s hobby, and expecting the manufacturers to return to their “roots” that never existed is more than silly. Oh, and Athearn is not a charity. There was one quote floating around out there that Athearn’s CEO at the time said that if they hadn’t gone into Genesis and RTR that Athearn would have closed years ago. Also, another factor they said is that the new cost to make the BB’s was going to result in the same prices as RTR models do. So what’s the bigger mistake? Drop
Yes, going to train shows costs money. But my point is, it is a separate cost to models. This topic is about what trains look best on a layout, RTR or kit built. I just don’t think it is fair to add the cost of going to a show on to the cost of obtaining trains. Its separate and in my opinion, really unrealated to the topic. Its entertainment. Feel free about making a topic about train shows and how much they cost, or are they what they used to be or whatever.
Now, I’m as much aware of the rising cost of the hobby and with my current economic status, I’m chosing to live within my means and not blow savings on trains, instead of disposable income I can afford from my monthly earnings. We’ve seen decent RTR freight cars go from street price of $15-20 to $25-35 each. I didn’t realize
To me, my kit built freight cars and fine tuned and painted brass engines are something to be proud off and I get the majority of my enjoyment building them. The newer RTR stuff is great and has its place in the hobby as well, and some of it is drop dead beautifull. When I build my kits I have a 2 foot rule, if I cant see it from 2 feet away, I probably wont bother to install it when I build the kit. Like full brake rigging, I put the major items there, but not every single linkage and rod. We all have our own comfort level as to what extent we want our models detailed, and what material they are made of. I have everything from finely detailed brass engines, to vintage cast brass Bowser mountain class engine, from shake the box Athearn car kits to craftsman wood car kits. They all fill a need on my layout and fit in my comfort zone for rolling stock and locomotives. They are not for everyone but I am happy and thats the most important part. Personaly I feel paying 10-25 dollers for a nice wood car kit, either new from the likes of Labelle or Silver Streak, or a vintage Ambroid kit ect and getting the several evenings worth of buidling enjoyment is more value for the money spent, than any 20 doller or higher RTR freight car. I shudder thinking of what it would cost $$ wise to replace my HOn3 stuff with current production from Blackstone. Thier stuff is great looking, but hold on to ones wallet when it comes to the prices, even on the net. Many newer modelers I meet or that join our local clubs have never gotten to hold, operate or see some of the older kits or brass engines. But I can say that I have converted many over to this side of the hobby, much to thier enjoyment. Once they see how easy it is to remove the boiler from a PFM/United brass steamer over their Bachmann, BLI ect steamer. It all comes down to enjoyment, if it “floats your boat”, then by all means go for it and enjoy your hobby
OP’s original question: Which is better? Well, it depends:
Depends who is building …Most of the guys I know build better looking stuff than you can buy RTR. I am speaking mainly of mass produced buildings and freight/passenger cars, not locomotives.
Depends on What you want . Many of my friends and myself also build stuff that you cant buy either as RTR or sometimes even in kit form… Of course, we generally enjoy this sort of thing…
Depends on the quality of the kit A blue box kit is not going to build up into something to compete with a Kadee RTR, but a Sunshine or Westerfield kit might (or even surpass the Kadee)…
Depends on the RTR…Blackstone and Kadee freight cars are quite good (with a price tag to match), Walthers built ups (Structures)??? well…
I think you need both in the hobby…I won’t live long enough to scratchbuild (or even kit build) everything and lead a semi-normal life. Nor am I interested in building/scratchbuilding locomotives (brass consumes enough time already)
I’d even take it a step further, and say that the real problem that I have come to observe in the hobby since I returned three years ago isn’t whether someone chooses to scratch build, assemble a kit, or purchase RTR, but is that it’s simply much easier to log on to a forum and complain than it is to actually pursue the hobby of model railroading.
Instead of worrying about X versus Y, maybe just consider the “U”, and what you want to do. And than do it.
It’s just as easy to find excuses to actually do some work in the hobby, as it is to find excuses not to.
If buying RTR, or kit bashing, or scratch building is the excuse somebody needs to do something, than I’m all for it (especially if they come back and actually share their work and experiences, instead of another pointless diatribe)
