I have new woodland scenic grass mat and am getting ready to lay track. From what I read it sounds like it would be good to lay mat down scrap off grass where track is to be and place track. Any questions , Ideas or comments would gratefully be appreciated. I am excited about getting this layout going and showing off the pictures.
Thank you for your input.
Dave[:D]
I have never worked with it, but I would not scrape it. I would figure out my track plan, lay roadbed, lay the track (maybe at this point…not sure), and then cut the mat to shape to lie between the tracks.
The way to get the shape right, though, would be to lay the entire mat first, but not fixed in any way, and then lay out your track atop it. Mark it, or you could use a rug-cutter to cut along the edges of the track or roadbed. Later, after your track is placed permenantly, you could merely place the pre-cut mat pieces where they were intended to go…and they should fit.
The way most people build a layout, they put the track down, then add scenery. The real world though works opposite. The scenery is already there, the crews have to come in and make room for the track. I have an old MR article by Linn Westcott that proposed doing just this. Build up benchwork, add scenery, and THEN carve out the right of way. Seems like more work, but closer to the real thing. Of course you’d have to know what your topography was before building, or you might wnd up with places that it is impossible to runt he rail line. Might be easier these days with foam scenery materials - the original article is from the days of nothing but plaster (sometimes with asbestos fiber mixed in!).
–Randy
Hi
Do it the same as real railrods do it.
Nature has provided everything. Hills, Mountains, Rivers, Streams, ect.
The railroads survay where the easist, cheepest, route is possable.
If a mountain is in the road go through it.
If a hill is not to big, make a cutting.
If a water course is not to big make a culvert rather than a bridge.
Thanks for all the great comments, My wife and I have decided to do the scenic layout first then lay the track, just like in the real world. We will let you know how it turns out and show pictures. [:)]
Dave, the Woodland Scenics grass matt is godo stuff. You can lay your track right on it. I wouldnt worry about scrapeing it off where the track goes.
I asked this same question too, when I was starting my layout. While I got different answers the vast majority told me to lay the track, then do the scenery and finally ballast the track last. It does mean I need to cover the track while landscaping but I’ve been using that method and it works well for me.
Laying track after scenery may sound like the prototypical thing to do, but it’s more trouble than you think. IMO, track needs to be tested and 100% operational before scenery is started. I’ve seen great looking layouts fall short due to sloppy track work. The best scenic layout comes in second place to smooth flowing trackwork. In addition, If the track needs to be adjusted in any way, the scenery only gets in the way. I once tried doing this on a small section of a layout and found out it is difficult to lay track smoothly. As a result, I’ve learned never to do that again…
Bob, I hesitated to counter what the earlier fellows have suggested since I had already stated my opinion, but I agree with you entirely.
We are not building a revenue-generating 1:1 scale railroad with real contours to negotiate. We have finicky, close-set rails, oversized wheels, poor bearings and couplers, etc., and each departure from the optimal introduces problems in smooth running between the various items from various manufacturers. If you build what could be taken as a true scale setting, and try to make your track fit subsequently, you will have to have scenery that is about 2" deep! That rules out the more traditional plaster/hardshell materials. Foam would be fine, but now you are talking a lot of carving work…fill your boots. I think most relatively young-in-the-tooth modelers will be disappointed, regardless of their medium, with the resultant trackage.
Due to the issues related to our scale toys, we have to reduce chance (unplanned) errors to a minimum, or you get nothing. Nothing fun or useful, that is. Building terrain without considerable precision, and then expecting to run decent grades and curves on transversely level trackage over it is unrealistic…or idealistic. I believe, firmly, that the majority of modelers who build terrain will strongly urge the modeler to build roadbed that meets the precepts of sensible track planning, and then add scenery between them with what means and skill that one has. If the scenery only manages to eke out a C- grade when all is done, your tracks had better rate nearer to B+, or you will be one disappointed fella. Conversely, an A+ level of scenery will merely be eye-candy when your trains won’t stay railed, or won’t climb your grades.
The scenery is an adjunct, like salt and pepper. If your trains don’t run well, what was the point?
The point is that I dont care about the trains… just the modeling… and if I can get it to look good in WPF who cares if it stays on the rails…
(hopes Crandell sees my sarcasm and wit in relation to the recent spout of (argumentative for no reason) threads and responses to threads.
In response to the thread question… you should envisage the scene… plan the track… build ,test, and test the track again, and then and only then let scenery get in the way of solving any track problems… as much as I love scenery work, I can tell you its a b1tch to rip it out cos the train keeps jumping of the rails, get the track right first but know where you are going with it in relation to your scenicking.
Have fun & be safe
Karl
We’re finishing our first layout (and already talking about the “next one”). We sort of put track layout down, built-up most of the scenery, then got the track going. Problems with this route: 1) The track plan (and track work) asn’t the best…and it was sort of too late (guess we gotta build a new layout) 2) it’s hard for a 6-yr old to wait “forever” to get the trains running while we keep messing with scenery, wiring, etc Next time, we get the trainis running on blue/pink foam, then we’ll worry about the scenery.
John Allen once built a scene that looked like an abandoned stretch of track - old, weathered ties, ballast, every tree, bush and fallen leaf in place. There was even a deer (elk? antelope?) standing on the right of way. The photo caption identified it as a location where John needed to lay rail to open a new section of the Gorre and Daphetid!
If you have the modeling skill of a John Allen, by all means build your scenery first.
If, on the other hand, your hamhooks and tracklaying tools are a hazard to any scenery not built like the National Gold Depository, it’s a good idea to get the rail down, fully proved and operating before planting the first Woodland Scenics tree.
Linn Westcott once described the “Engineer” modeler as the one who was going to install his signals before the scenery. Guilty as charged.
Chuck (who likes scenery in other folks’ photos, but has yet to build any)
I must definitely side with those who lay track first. It is very difficult to maintain a pristine, or even passable, state for the scenery if you come back an lay track last. Odds are that you’ll ruin your best efforts in an attempt to get the track laid, ballasted, and operating to best advantage if the track is your final project. It’s one thing to just add a spur to a scene but quite another to lay all the trackwork last…little wonder that it’s been advised “track first” for 70-odd years of the hobby.
CNJ831
Why not combine them in the planning stage? As you are developing your track plan, make several copies at a local copy store. Get some colored pencils and try sketching different scenic effects…you don’t have to be an artist, just sketch ideas, roads here, industries there, bluffs, cuts, rivers, etc. That way when you begin to assemble your layout you have a good idea what will be where, eh? It’s fun planning, and all a part of model railroading! Learn and enjoy! jc5729
While many of us envison building a completly scenicked and operating layout, the truth of the matter is is sometimes the construction of the layout can take a number of years unless you are completely retired. In the meantime, you can still run trains along unscenicked tracks, you cannot run trains through untracked scenery.
Track first. Wiring second, structures third.
Once you get everything troubleshot, fixed, tweaked and derailment free then lay the scenery down.
I prefer the LDE concept. Work on 6 feet at a time after the entire track is down and running perfect.
Dave,
In your original post you talked only about laying a grass mat before the track. No harm in that, but the guys are right who encourage no trees, structures, landscape until the track is running prefectly. I also encourage not just running on plywood, or blue or pink foam. Slap a coat of brown or green ( or a mixture) acrylic on first (or your grass mat, I guess). Takes only a few minutes, and you can wind up running on the bare top for a long time. Why not run on brown instead of pink?
I believe there has been some miss understanding. We have already mapped out the track and plans for scenery. What we were thinking of doing next is laying grass mat then putting in track, test just like we would if nothing but track was there. Once set and running good. Placing ballast in and moving on to scenery. We are not trying to put the horse before the cart just trying to make a smooth transition from one to the other so that when you look at layout you have to wonder which came first.
Thanks for all the comments and responces keep them coming I am never to old to learn more.
Thanks again
Dave
It depends, there isn’t one correct answer. To the guys who think tracks have to be laid first one asks how they deal with tall spindly trestles and the scenery hehind them that can’t be done through or around the trestle, and no trestle, no track? So the scenery comes first in this example. Now a cut through a mountain. Anyone who builds the mount, and then digs the cut for the track, is a gluttons a for punishment. It’s100 times easier to lay the track and build the cut into the mountain. So a little experience and common sense come into play. If you lack experience we can help you with advise, but common sense is another matter.
I would not use grass matt because all I seen looks like grass matt and lots get bubbles under them later when the plywood shrinks in the winter. Fred
True enough, Fred. Although, if you use spline roadbed supported by risers, you can cut out the roadbed and build riser supports to the point where abutments are to be located. You leave the rails in place over the gap, supported temporarily, and then install the bridge and scenery later. It is what I am doing.
-Crandell