I have 5 old Shinohara hon3 turnouts # 4 in my yard. I control them with caboose ground throws. I use DCC. These are old school unmodified using the rails to route power. They used to work fine but now work not so good. The balance of my layout uses modified for dcc shinoharas and bluepoint controlers. These work great. My question is what turnouts should I use? I will install bluepoints but hate cutting and modifing the shinoharas. Also will a # 5 work in the space. Yes I have to remove the scenery as track and switches are finished. I would like to keep the track that connected to the turnouts. I use code #70
“but now they work not so good” How bad are they? derailments? failure to throw? intermittant power routing? Something else? For my layout I strive for flawless running, 'cause there are so many things to go wrong and stop a train. Can you fix what ever it is with the Shinohara’s? If not, I’d replace them. I have a mix of Atlas, Peco and Shinohara turnouts on my layout and they all work good for me.
Number 5’s are not all that much bigger than number 4’s, so they will PROBABLY (no guarentees) fit. To be really sure, obtain one, or an accurate drawing of one, or a tracing of one and check it out on the layout.
I think you’re asking if a #5 will fit where a #4 was? Probably not. IIRC, Peco makes what is considered a #5?
In any case, let me give you some tips, as I’ve had some issue with mine, the oldest of which have been in service close to 3 decades now.
There are two main areas of contact that give you trouble unless it is modified. The pivot end of the points is a rivet. Find a small nail set or punch. Work it into the rivet’s opening gently, move it around, expand it is what you want to do so it has better tighter contact.
The other end of the points at the bridle will contact just one rail at a time, depending on how it’s thrown. If you have a worn BrightBoy cleaner that is thin at one end, it makes it possible to clean between the point rail and the rail opposite the way it is thrown. Rub, then throw the points and rub inside the opposite side.
Then find some CRC 2-26. It’s a contact cleaner and lubricant. Using a toothpick dipped in it (decant a small quantity from the spray can you can find it in usually), apply a drop to the rivet and between each point and it’s adjoining rail. This should help a bunch and can be repeated (except you can’t keep enlarging the rivet, just make sure it’s relatively tight).
The ultimate solution is what I recently did to the last few of mine that I could reach from below with a Tortoise or other remote throw. I took a mini slide switch and made it the throw. This also gives the capability to control the frog polarity by hooking a green(frog) wire to the slide switch. Like this:
That’s a ME turnout, but works just the same as Shino’s would. Once you have a “hot frog” most contact issues will go away. Anyway, pretty easy stuff to try before ripping things up. If you do, be gentle, as those old turnpouts can be worth cash used on the 'bay.
What kind of problem are you having with the Shinoharas?
I found out on two of the old ddc modified turnouts connections in the “suitcase” connectors came loose while moving it. Now are soldiered and they work. In the yard which I built a long time ago I am using un-modified turnouts with ground throws.I am going to replace these with either modified shinoharas with blue point controls or swap with pecos.
I think there has been quite a bit of discussion on this Forum (although more likely under the electrical and DCC heading) about what to do about so-called “DCC unfriendly/power routing” turnouts … and maybe even on MR VideoPlus somewhere on one or another of their project layouts perhaps. To my way of thinking Shinohara turnouts are such quality goods that it is worth going to the effort to use them with modifications if at all possible. I do not know if the Caboose Industries ground throws you use are the kind that come with additional built in contacts either for power routing or panel lighting, but that might be worth considering if you make the modifications. I am not an electronic guy or a DCC guy but to my limited understanding the need is to add insulated rail joiners on the two rails that come out of each frog. Either that or cut a gap and make sure an insulated spacer prevents it from closing.
Dave Nelson
I agree. I have some Shinohara switches that are almost 20 years old. All rated for DC. When I switched to DCC, I put gaps at the rails coming from the switch. Then I made sure those tracks had feeder wires to them. In most cases all it took was a cut off wheel in a Dremal tool.
If the frogs of your power-routing turnouts did not have to be isolated with DC (e.g., if facing another frog in the same track, such as a double-ended siding), you don’t have to isolate it for DCC. Frogs in so-called DCC-friendly turnouts are isolated because all the rails–before and after the frog–are always powered, creating conflicting polarity at an unisolated frog. Power-routing turnouts simply power one or the other tracks diverging from the frog: there is no polarity conflict unless there is another facing turnout/frog downline. Therefore, the frog of a turnout serving a spur or stub yard track does not require isolation whether the power is DC or DCC.
Dante
I’m gonna agree with Dante here. That’s why I didn’t mention gaps, because I assumed if it was already working as laid, the gaps must be in the right spots. If the frog was not previously powered for some reason, like mine were not, then you’d need to add the green/frog wire to power it reliably. Mine had no green wires, because the whole module involved was fed from the commom/bridle end of the turnouts at first. It’s possible more feeders would need to be added, though, depending on the track config when adding a way to switch the green wire.
Mike,
I assume you mean to wire an isolated frog only if you run a loco that loses power crossing over that frog. One can very well have DCC-friendly turnouts with isolated frogs that can remain unpowered if your motive power does not experience hesitation or stopping when running over the frog. Even then, if you only have 1 or 2 locos with that problem, it might be cheaper to install keep-alives in them rather than powering a lot of frogs.
Dante
Shinohara power-routing turnouts are hot frog, so discussion of insulated frogs is somewhat irrelevant.
I, personally, never rely on point-to-stock rail contact to power the closure rails and frog. There is always a set of SPDT contacts on the switch machine (Tortoises have two) or the electrical switches that I use for manual point movers, which I dedicate to the purpose of getting power of the correct polarity to the frog.
In fact, on my hand-laid turnouts the points are isolated from everything except the stock rail (when pressed against it.) An open point is electrically dead - no short when the back of a flange contacts it. OTOH, since I have a number of powered units that only pick up from one short-wheelbase truck or driver set on each side, dead frogs are NOT an option.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Actually I think we need some clarification from the original poster. He said that the switches used to work, but now they don’t. What changed? Did he just convert to DCC? Did he modify the track layout? Is his yard a stub yard or not?
I moved the layout when we downsized our home. I corrected 2 dcc modified turnouts. I will never use suitcase connections again. I removed 1 unmodified turnout to make it "friendly and BROKE it. I ordered a peco # 5 turnout to see if it will fit without redoing the track already down. If to much hassel I will modify another shinohara as all other turnouts are modified using bluepoint controlers and they work great.
Actually, it sounded like they still work, just not reliably. Sounds just like my own long-term experience with the same turnouts, where the contact necessary for the points to carry the power through to the frog end of the turnout becomes degraded. That’s why my advice was specific in terms of both a temporary fix and a longer term solution.
If it was me, I sure wouldn’t take that trackwork up until the temp solutions of cleaning the points and improving contact through the rivet are tried. Even then, the solution he advised he used elsewhere with success – adding a Bluepoint and presumably wiring the frog to it – can also work without the need to take up the track, presuming a feeder to the frog side of things can be tacked on.
I suggested the mini-slide switch for a couple of reasons. It wasn’t clear that he already had a hole below the bridle for the drive wire to come up from the Bluepoint or that the benchwork beneath would allow mounting a BP. That’s why I went with the slide switches on the last 3 I needed to convert, lack of access from below. Plus the mini-slide switches are cheap, 2 for $2.99 at Radio Shack and cheaper elsewhere, and much lower profile than a Caboose Ind throw.
EDIT: I see Jack responded while I was writing. Yeah, tearing things up will give you grief. Even drilling a hole for the throw wire from below can be dicey…
That’s when you find out how flexible nickel-silver rail really is. I was actually able to repair this one, although it was close to destroyed. If in doubt and you can reach it easily enough, the mini-slide switch will avoid this sort of near-disaster.[swg]
Thanks!
Is the Peco DCC friendly?
yes very friendly I am told.