Its all reall a craps shoot. I supervise an inspection department with a seniority system. It runs smoothly much of the time. The problem comes when some of my inspectors can hardly read a gage any more because their eyes are going. There are some fine inspectors that I cant keep because they keep getting bumped. (Production here is very cyclical based on the whims of the govt.) I cant build a bullpen of good young talent and over 75% of the inspectors are due to retire within 3 yrs. God bless them. They’ve been here 40 years but it sure does kill the incentive for anyone younger to come here and try hard.
Since everyone is rules qualified in the same labor group, labor class; senority determines who gets the bid. Exempt positons are determined by ----- who’s neck the noose fits or
the new hard charger that lacks experience. MOW point of view.
Well another aspect: I worked 5 years for SP the last 3 as an engineer, and I was always on the xtra board, but i did work a lot not always at good runs but I worked. Then I went into a apprenticeship in the newspaper and had to sink to the bottom, but once again I perservered and I worked up to a journeyman Printer and with out seniority I would never gotten into the top management job I retired with, because I would never have had the right experience
I was thinking about taking a night course at the community college on effecient switching tech. Can you direct me there.
C’mon man this ain’t Wal Mart! Only kiss-asses worry about best qualified crap. 9 outta 10 times, the person with the most time is better qualified.
I take it you are non-union…figures
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9 times out of 10 the person who uses that kind of logic is the type of person who is not interested in becoming better because they have the job and don’t care…
I worry about the best-qualified every time I go to a Doctor, Dentist or call a repair person
Just think if you have younger people that can stick it out for another 3 yrs, those older people will be retiring and they will have a good job. I put in 35 years and was always close to the bottom of the seniority list. as they were always cutting jobs. But like Scott said earlier. you can always tell when a train has been there as they leave fre***racks, but I still can’t look at the tracks and tell which way the train was going, unless I actually see the train.
To those people who dont like unions and senority practice, then dont hire out with companies that work this way. then you wont be dissapointed when all your best brown nosing tactics dont get you nowhere. that is the best reason for senority is that I never care who is brown nosing the bosses when i want i job i bid it in . it is real simple the guy or gal that has put in 20 has more qualifications than a guy hired 2 weeks ago. and someone who has worked for the company for 20 years is not going anywhere. and knows the jobs the shippers and consignee. what they want and need. the guy here 2 weeks only know there is a party friday and he needs beer money.
The only negative to seniority I ever experienced at a job was the guy that was second on the list was a loafer. Consistently did as little as possible on the basis it was his “right” as a senior man. I out lived him (he died from cancer) and went on eventually to his spot on the list. I was well liked by management ,not on account of anything other than my ability. Was it the best system? No. The most workable and easy to understand? Absolutely.
At the beginning when I hired out 16 years ago for BN, I also had my questions and doubts about seniority. My dad was stauntchly anti-union, even though he did work for the NP back in the early '50s. Maybe there was some reason for it I don’t know, but that’s another story.
I wondered why more qualified people weren’t working the better jobs. Then as time progressed, and I got to know everyone and had a chance to work with so many different people, I’ve come to realize that everyone is equally qualified. The job isn’t something you pick up right away, but learn as you go. There are so many rules and things, and when you work with these guys and gals, you learn to respect them. It’s a team effort thing, you learn and trust everyone out here.
So when it comes to seniority and someone holding a special job, trust me when I say that this person should have the job, because he/she has been out here the longest and knows what’s going on. I would trust this person more than someone claiming to know more who is fresh off the street.
Well folks there seems to be some union haters in here!
I worked for the CNR Toronto for 31 years and I can tell you now if there were no union the company could just about do what it wanted to with workers, jobs and pay.
I was not a big fan of the union, but with out it things would have not been as good.
most of what I am reading in here is about the running trade, well I was not in that part of the railway I was a trucker and a heavy Equipment operator ie,Containers.
As some are saying, yes seniority does count, if you qualified for the job.
But what if you wanted to do another job in the railway and you were not qualified to do that job! The only way that I could get the heavy equipment job was to be trained, at that time, you could only get trained by bidding summer holiday relief.
You had three days to prove that you had ability and potential to do the job, if you didn’t you were disqualified, if you did then you got fifteen days of training and then you got the job. WL
SO what I was at the bottom ofr a week. Now I have over 400 under me. The retirements are coming I will be able to hold whatever pool turn I want soon enough ( if I want to do that)
I have worked that non seniority list crap. I dont care if you have more time than me its your right in my eyes to be able to bid into that job. But if you just came on the property? Hell no. I got passed for management positions cause the little suck butts were yes men. Me I dont brown nose well. I do my job and I go home. If you dont like me stepping on your toes to get it done go cry to someone else.
Now I am set up and ina good position. I like it and if your younger in whiskers and you want my job? Well your going to have to wait.Someday I will move and you will tell people the same thing.( BTW I do a *** fine job because I HAVE to! My safety and my pilots safety depends on me doing my job 100% right 100% of the time)
Everyone is arguing details or sliding into union versus anti-union rhetoric. Let’s look at the big picture. Railroading is a most unusual occupation and it’s labor arrangements reflect a lot of chronic instability in the railroad environment. First the unions. It’s an axiom that the industries that had the most abusive labor practices in the past have the most bloody-minded unions in the present. Railroads were the first real industry in the United States and have the longest history or labor relations. Working conditions, hours of service, safety problems and management arrogance all started out bad and only got better under external pressure which includes the unions, the government, public opinion and insurance companies. As far as the seniority system is concerned, it has the virtue of being transparent. Anything else would be rife with abuse and sour feelings. As for the job itself, trains run 24/7/365 plus leap year. Traffic fluctuates with economic conditions, the seasons, holidays, war and peace and a host of other factors. The extra board evolved to meet these demands. It simply takes a certain kind of person to cope with the irregularity and the younger guys have more stamina. And, then there’s hiring practices. The old norm was that railroads only hired the relatives of their employees. You had to be a “son of the railroad” which meant you came from a select group and already knew about the job and what it was like before you ever got it.
Now they call that “invidious discrimination” and the railroads have to make up for it by hiring women and minorities. This brings in folks who are much more likely to be upset by what they find on the job. They think there’s got to be a better way. If I knew what that was, I’d be rich and famous!
Even though I’ve always been “non-Union” and usually a member of the dreaded “Management”, I’ve got to agree with the Seniority argument. In jobs/professions where most of the work specific knowledge is learned “on the job”, experience is competence. The more experienced/senior person simply knows the job better. Doesn’t mean they won’t ever do anything wrong, but normally they will perform to high standards. And, at one time they weren’t senior and had to pay their dues, taking “the jobs nobody wants.”
9 times out of 10 the person who uses that kind of logic is the type of person who is not interested in becoming better because they have the job and don’t care…
I worry about the best-qualified every time I go to a Doctor, Dentist or call a repair person
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I’m very good at my job and strive to do better! Too bad I am not a Doctor…Dentist…or repair person. I can pass any drug test at any time…can they all say the same?
P.S. thank you for setting me straight on work ethic…
Murphy…
Keep in mind the way and the reason the trade unions came into existence.
They are, by nature, socialist groups, no one person ends up “higher” in rank than another…we all call each other “brother” you get the point.
Here is something not mention yet…the seniority system is not the result of the carriers decision, but is rather part of the labor agreement requested by the unions.
After all, who can judge which person is the better conductor, engineer…there isn’t any difference in pay grades among class, I earn the same amount as a guy hired last year…he holds the same title as I do…so who chooses which person is “better qualified” to hold a certain job?
Left up to the carriers as to who works what job, you can bet the suck ups would have the gravy jobs…and if it really was up to the carriers, there would be no distinction between any of us, we all, engineers and conductors, would be cross trained in each others craft, then dumped into a system wide pool service/extra board, and do away with any one man “holding down” any particular job.
Because each person in that craft receives the exact same training as any other person, there is no real way to decide who is better qualified for any job, other than the personality contest…there isn’t a conductor grade 1, grade 2 or 3…any more than there are different grades of locomotive engineers…they all have to follow the same rules, and function in like manner…every conductors job is the same job, requires the same skills, and the same function…I can teach anyone to be a switchman(yard man for you class one guys)…I cant teach him how to be a really good switchman, but I can equip him with the same basic skills and knowledge as I have…getting good at it takes practice…but I am no more “qualified” than the next switchman…there is no continuing education classes for railroaders beyond rules class and rules recertification’s.
So the unions chose the only real method le
One thing you find in a craft where ‘all jobs are the same’, is that all jobs are not the same. Each job has it’s own uniqueness and some of the things that make a particular job unique will attract some in the craft and repel others in the came craft. Not all jobs are equally attracive to everyone on a particular senority district.
True…not all of “the jobs that are the same”, are the same…some are more fun…lead switching attracts people like me, road jobs don’t appeal to me at all.
I enjoy the puzzle of switching, you might not…but on paper…we are “the same” as far as the carriers are concerned.
But it still boils down to not having any other way to make any form of objective decision on who gets what job…I think the seniority system was, and still is the only workable alternative to “political” appointment or favoritism.
Ed
I fully agree.
Interesting how people in a society can assume THEIR way must be best.
In the UK, industry was crippled by a slavish following of seniority in craft unions.
Of course, if everybody was the same, one could assume that the bloke (or lady!) with the most seniority is the best qualified, but it ain’t necessarily so!
Some people plateau in their learning; some get lazy and say, “who cares; I’ll get the job, anyway” (yes; there are people like that!!!). No, ability should be the determinant, which should inlude a review of seniority. And what about willingness to a good job. I know I overtook in ability many of those who had been in my craft longer, but, until the rules were changed, I was ham-strung by seniority. Sorry if that sounds proud, but it is the truth!
Was the seniority system thrown out completely or was it modified? If modified, how was it done? How was the system crippled before, are we talking in terms of excess employees or what, exactly?
Yes, it is interesting how people in society assume their way is better. Usually it is the Brits doing so. BTW which is the most common locomotive manufacturer over there? Is it Tyco or Lionel?