Whither DCC?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

OK, I shall make my confession first. Despite MR’s monthly sermon on the Virtues of Digital Command Control, I still happlly operate my HO layout with traditional DC. I don’t have a bunch of dedicated folks coming over one a week/month to operate my layout. It’s just me, and I only have two hands. How many independently controlled trains can I manage?

I know of the fascinating features available with DCC, and I’m sure I would enjoy many of those features. But I lack the time or inclination to re-wire my track and meticuously install decoders, and I most definitely cannot justify shelling out $1,500 or more on it.

The principal advantage of DCC still seems to be the ability to independently control multiple locomotives anywhere on the layout, and one needs all of the exotic electronics, sending subcarrier signals through the rails, etc., to do this. But isn’t this an awfully complicated way of accomplishing this? Garden railroaders for years have been operating their trains by radio control, and I see these litle battery-operated R/C race cars – larger than an HO scale locomotive – running around all of the time. Why doesn’t some manufacturer simply idesign an R/C receiver to be placed in the locomotive; that’s what the prototypes do.

I can’t help but wonder if in 10-15 years we’re all going to be looking at DCC the way we now look at 8-track audio tapes.

Comments?

2

Comments? Well…I’d have to say that I think this thread will only serve as fodder for a few to eventually turn this into a potential flame war. I hope I’m wrong…

Tom

3

Actually, radio control for HO has been done. In the late 70’s and early 80’s there was a control system called ‘ASTRAC’. This system enjoyed only a short heyday and no longer exists. When the system worked, it worked very well. It sent out commands to the ASTRAC equipped locomotives (each locomotive had a radio receiver tuned to a unique frequency, similar to the addressing system used by DCC). The radio signals, like DCC signals, were transmitted through the rails. However, it was prone to false activation of locomotives and scrambling of commands, resulting in many crashes. This problem could never be worked out and the system was eventually dropped. Perhaps with todays technology, it could be done again, but I don’t see why any company would want to research it when DCC is much simpler and cheaper. I have a small layout that was built with DC blocking in mind. All I had to do to convert it to DCC was hook the controller of my Bachmann EZ-Command to the wires that were connected to the power pack. I went through and installed heavier wiring, but that was my own choice. The system worked perfectly well before I rewired it. I retained the blocking, as it lets me set up power districts. I also made it possible to have DCC and DC locos running at the same time on different packs by utilizing the blocks for the purpose they were installed for. I recently tried finding information on the old ASTRAC technology but, like the dinosaurs, it’s totally extinct.

4

I see your point. Still, though, the trains are meant to run on rails, unlike R/C anything. Why not capitalize on the rails to provide the motor with controlling information? That’s what DCC does. It allows me to operate as many locos as I can reasonably run independently, and I don’t need batteries…just power to the rails and a coded signal imparted to the power wave.

I guess if we switched to normal AC current, then it would make sense. Not as things do now, though, and it works reasonably well.

5

Radio control may happen. In fact, it probably will. There are some things in the model railroad environment that will make it a bit challenging, especially in the smaller scales. At some point they will most likely get solved. For now, and at least the next few years (I can’t define few) DCC is the best we’ve got. In other terms, I know that a computer that comes out in ten years is going to be superior to one I buy today, does that mean I should get a 10 year old one, instead? (DCC being now, radio control being ten (or more) years from now, and DC being 10 years old).

If I was starting from scratch, there are very few circumstances where I think DC would be first choice (I didn’t say none, so don’t attack too hard!) I would like to very gently say that changing a layout from DC to DCC might well not be a hard rewire job. Depending on how many locos and what type they are installing decoders does not have to be painful and meticulous (ok, maybe meticulous, but not painfully so). And a $1500 price tag is pretty darned high unless you have a fair number of locos or are talking about an RF system with multiple throttles (at which point you are not comparing apples to apples, most likely).

I guess what I am saying is pretty much two things. One, that your arguments against DCC are at least partially flawed, and two that just because we know there will be something different/better in the future does not necessarily mean the current offering is poor. Looking at it another way, maybe DC is the 8-track, DCC is the cassette, and RF (or whatever comes next) is the CD. And there will be something else after that!

6

Is this what you’re talking about Jeff?

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/kalmbachcatalog/12242spreads.pdf

7

Do you mean to have an R/C recieiver in the train and power the train w/batteries in the engine or tender. If you supply power thru the track you’ll just be back to square one.

8

I’m not Jeff (well, I am, but not THAT Jeff), but the GE ASTRAC system is what he was talking about. There was a substantial writeup about it in ‘The Complete Book of Model Railroading’ from that era. I may (at least I used to) have it at home. If I remember right it was pretty much an AC carrier with five different AC frequecies used to control the locos. The receiver was a filter that only accepted its frequency. (This is memories from reading about it in the early '70s, well before the education to understand it. I’ll have to look it up!)

9

Yes, that’s it. I had one, but it never performed up to the standards all the hype said it would.

10

Where do you get that figure?

David B

11

Jeff (not Jeffrey),

The second page of the link I gave has more info on the ASTRAC thing. There is also an ad on it showing it’s the GE ASTRAC. This isn’t my cup of tea, but just thought it’d shed some light on the matter.

12

Ok. Glad I got the right one up here.

13

I looked all over for any current info on it but couldn’t find any. I guess that system is totally dead.

14

The $1,500 figure is $1,000 too much, which just goes to show how much the OP really knows about DCC. Maybe his motto is, “Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up.”

We just ordered an NCE system consisting of the main command station with radio receiver and 5 Amp booster, two additional 5-Amp boosters, and four radio throttles for hundreds less than that for our club layout.

There’s a short article in the Railway Post Office column of Model Railroader magazine’s October 2007 issue on page 20 by an individual who claims to be running his HO layout with radio control, battery powered trains and getting up to 3 hours run time on a battery, so that technology is not far off.

15

Nothing wrong with that. One of the reasons I tell people they don’t need DCC is if they are an “only” operator with one train running…

Why would you need to do that? Disconnect the two wires from the DC power supply, connect the two wires from the DCC unit. Done.

That seems to be a major roadblock for many modelers, but I often find it easier to do than just installing new head lamps.

??? I have a MRC command 2000, a Digitrax Zephyr, and a top of the line Lenz with CVP wireless, and a larger fleet of locomotives than I care to count (let’s just say more than 100). All combined I don’t think I’ve spent more than $4000. Where do you come up with that number?

That is not the principal advantage that is the principle purpose of the system.

You need to check the definition of exotic. DCC is anything but exotic.

Once again you are not talking about DCC here. The older systems like CTC-16, Railcommand, and On-Board had sub-carriers. DCC does not.

I happen to be one of them. One cannot compare Garden railroading with all the massive amounts of space

16

Lets see, A starter set say a Zepher, $160, lets not use old locos, (although they could be converted for less) lets buy new on line , three locos dcc, no sound for $175 each, we have now invested $685. And we have enough locos to keep one person busy. Lets rewire the main buss. can get 500ft of #14 wire a HD for about $38. so we are on our way with new power, new locos, and new wiring for about $725, less than half the $1,500. We are now controlling the locos and not the track. What’s not to like. And if you shop, sound can be included for about the same price.

17

At 72 years old, I am not sure how interested I am in new developments 5 years from now. I like operating 3 or 4 trains at a time. but that is just me. I have 3 radio throttles and 2 tethered. I don’t care what I paid, but I do like what I have, but that is just me.

18

I would rather see an RC system. I think we will see one in the next 10 years.
PA2 wireless+ 8 amp booster-About $600. Decoders for 20 locos-1/2 sound, 1/2 non sound-$50 each average. There’s $1500 real quick. And that doesn’t include installation of the decoders for someone that can’t do it themselves. (Dave’s already told us how much that can run.)

We haven’t even talked about all the odds and ends and things like turnout or signal decoders yet. Your not going to spend that on a 4x8 but for a descent size layout, I think that figures right on the money.

Cacole-PLEASE let us know where your getting a system like that so cheap. I know I don’t like spending more than I have to.[;)]

19

Exactly how much do you have invested in your DC system, in terms of wire, switches, power supplies, etc? (To be fair, how much would it cost TODAY).

Probably almost as much as it would cost to install DCC.

DCC has the costs upfront. Three-quarters of it is the DCC starter system. The savings come from reduced wiring, fewer switches and other devices, and time. Problems, and the time spent troubleshooting them, is directly related to the complexity of the system. DCC eliminates a lot of potential problems while only introducing a few of its own.

More wires, more connections, more problems. More switches, more failures. DCC eliminates a lot of them.

Quoting a cost of $1500 is a little extreme. Just exactly what system do you have in mind?

20

Although it’s a bit on the high side, there are a lot of model railroaders who have been around a while and have close to a hundred engines. So, at $15 per decoder, let’s see, first we convert to octal, then do a fourier transform so we can add instead of multiply, take the complex conjugate, rotate registers right 4 bits, and then revert to dollars, we get…$1500. And that’s just for the engines!

Then, suppose someone with a decent sized layout wants to convert all his (or her) turnouts to DCC control. What’s that going to cost? Sure, most of us realize that you don’t have to use DCC for your turnouts, but one of the common DCC misconceptions is that you do. It’s another possible source of a high estimate for DCC conversion.

Big basement layout, with 3 friends who come over regularly for Ops sessions? Hmmm, including the owner, that’s 4 throttles, possibly radio. Ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching.

OK, I’ve got a Lenz-100 system with an extra throttle, and about a dozen engines, some with sound. I’ve only put about 5 or 6 hundred into DCC myself, but yeah, you could easily spend $1500 to upgrade a large layout and a fleet of engines to DCC. And what if you paid someone else to install the decoders? If you had $1500, how many engines could you get decoder-equipped for that money? I’m sure someone here can do the math…

My point is that, like a lot of aspects of this hobby, there’s a wide range of answers to the “How Much?” question.

And why do I like DCC? I’ve got a small layout, 5x12 feet. That’s small enough that putting in blocks doesn’t make much sense, other than kill switches on the roundhouse stalls for storing inactive engines. DCC lets me control my engines anywhere, not just within a block boundary.

Radio? Take a look at this video. (It’s for a technology example, and