I’ve read a lot on these forums about what could be done about Amtrak and I think I may have teed off a lot of people by my constant call that you write or e-mail your congressman or senator, if I have, I’m sorry. I can’t help thinking if everyone who answered my ’ When did your love for railroads start ’ started e-mailing, it would be a start. How about all you guys in the industry, wouldn’t you like to be a part of a train like, say; The Twentieth Century Limited. We, the ordinary people, are the only ones who can save passenger rail travel but bemoaning the demise on forums such as this will not help. Let congress know how you feel.
Pop
My belief is that if you give americans a good and cheap alternative to cars they will buy it. I do not know what to say about amtrak, cause i’ve never used it.
But i’m very dissapoited about the level of passenger services in Alaska. Alaska Railroad is providing passenger services, but 99.9% of those using our passenger trains are tourists from other states and countries. We are wasting millions on the facilities that most alaskans probably will never get to use.
But on the bright side we are receiving tons of money from them people.
God bless the tourists.
I’m quite pessimistic(did i spell the right?) about passenger trains in the US. It doesnt work the way we want it to.
Maybe we should discuss that problem with congress as suggested above?
First, I doubt your ordinary.
Ordinary people rarely take a stand, or really voice their opinion.
You have no trouble doing both, which sets you a cut above ordinary.
Yup, would love to be the conductor on the Limited, any of the Zeyphers.
And I speak with my vote, just ask Kay Hutchinson.
I agree, if we want passenger trains, real passenger trains, then the only way we will ever get them is to make our voices and opinions heard in Congress.
Find the e-mail or web site of your congressman, and go to town.
If they finally get the message we wont vote for them if they dont give us what we want, something may get started!
Keep the heat on…
Ed
analyzing this topic is like photographing a diamond from every facet… a diamond can have hundreds of facets…
it’s a catch-22: people stopped riding trains because cars & planes were more available and affordable, attracting customers from riding trains… therefore, trains spent less to maintain levels of service… service deteriorated and fewer people rode, causing more curbacks…
transit, although a loser in paying for itself, has attracted ridership where population has resulted in crowded hi-ways & parking conditions… transit in the northeast corridor, atlanta, chicago, l.a., san diego and seattle will stay as it has maintained regular ridership…
hot-button issues receive immediate consideration… inter-city rail is not a hot-button issue and will not be in the foreseeable future…
there is no interest in rehabilitating amtrak nation-wide because there is no interest in the medium… why no interest?
people say if amtrak had its own r-o-w, it could move faster without freights to slow it down… sure, if i had noone in front of my car, i wouldn’t have to slow down… who will build a hi-way just for me?
france, japan, etc. have hi-speed rail, why not us? beause there’s no support for it… why? amtrak is often slow to arrive, breakdowns and accidents are frequent… it doesn’t matter whose fault it was, any accident is a black mark against the train, in the public’s eyes…
a large truck recently was stopped too close to the tracks at a guarded crossing… [reportd in trains’ newswire] it was struck by a lead amtrak engine… why was the truck parked too close? i don’t know, it doesn’t matter… point is, prohibitions against stopping too close to the tracks are not taken seriously enough in the u.s… in europe, it is rare to read of a crossing accident…
nothing about long-haul pass. rail service is taken seriously here… local transit is serious as voters use the systems and will not tolerate impediments in
Who cares? Lots of people, that’s who.
If we didn’t have passenger rail you’d notice it. What should we do? Just eliminate the overnight services? Or all the services?
PEOPLE GO ANYWHERE FOR PLANES
I don’t think passenger rail is about getting from point A to point B. We here all know that passenger trains don’t go everywhere. I can’t get on a train in my hometown. I’d have to drive an hour away to meet a trains that come sometime between 2-8AM (yes, they’re late a lot). But you know, people will drive anywhere to take a plane. I live in the Wichita area and everyone drives to Kansas City to get cheaper flights that go to more direct places without transfers and rerouting. Every plane out of Wichita goes to/comes from Dallas everytime. And speaking of driving anywhere, all the airports are located out of city limits, not downtown like train stations.
But despite the diffculties of getting the right flight at the right price, the hassle of getting to and from an airport that now has increased security, and regardless of overbooked flights of crowded planes and cramped seats and taking a chance of poor food meals people will, mostly, take a flight over a train, why?
FEAR OF…
Out of MOST PEOPLE I’ve talked to - non-train enthusiast - FEAR is why they fly and NOT ride the rails. They’re afraid of all those trains crashing all the time and killing all those people. I’m like “what train crashes?” This is an irrational fear. A plane crash is highly more likely to kill everyone aboard and a train crash is more likely of killing only a couple of people at most. Now there are exceptions, but when was the last time a passenger train in the United States crashed and killed hundreds? I know there was one in the 1980s that was a disaster in the North East. But how about the time before that? There was horrific accident in D.C. in 1953. A Pennsy GG1 lead the Federal and crashed at Union Station. Miraculously no one was killed.
The rest of the people
You will never have successful passenger service because of the fact that freight roads gave it up due to non-profitability, and to allow passenger service on their rails, which is now of great inconvenience, to the extent that would make it truly profitable, is improbable. During the 1960’s and 1970’s, the bean counters convinced railroads to remove double tracked mainlines, passing sidings, and yards for the sake of tax relief because railroads were in great decline. Now that freight has returned in greater strength, the decision they or their predicessors made some 30 years ago have come to bite them in the butt. What then cost 1 million to lay down rail and maintain, would now cost tens of millions to replace. The railroads simply do not want to lay that kind of cash down. They cry poverty, but have it. The lobby is to have the American people pay the burden with taxes. Don’t believe me? Look into the Amtrak Richmond VA station project to return the Downtown Station back to active service, restore Brown Street Yard to a Amtrak facility, and double and triple mainline the RF&P again…Who was supposed to fit the bill? CSX? Hardly! American and Virginian tax payers…
That’s why it still hasn’t come to fruitition…
You will not see passenger service like it used to because of freight carrier concerns, automobiles, and established costs vs travel times.
Is this all to it? Hardly, but it speaks volumes!
The cold fact is pay the dough, put the rails back, add trains, lower the fares, decrease travel times, and you’ll get the increase in ridership.
JMHO…
Thanks for the compliment Ed. Cabforward how do you know what the taxpayer will or will not stand for? For years we, the taxpayers, have had our hard earned money to the tune of 4 billion dollars a year sent to Israel and a like amount to Egypt and God knows how much more to God knows where, I don’t hear any outcry over that. If any of the monuments in D.C. started falling into disrepair there would be a tremendous hue and cry to get them fixed. To my mind, passenger rail service is just as great a monument to the building of this country as any other. O.K. so maybe passenger rail would only be a break even concept at best but how else can you give the travelling public and alternative to planes and cars. After this blackout in the Northeast, you watch the airlines go screaming back to congress because they have lost money. To travel by car on the highways any great distance nowadays produces stress that negates the convenience. I"ll keep on with my writing Washington and I hope some of you will do the same.
Stay safe.
Pop
mr scott,
how do i know what the taxpayer will stand for? i sure know what i stand for…
i watch the news (broadcast & cable), i read newspapers and newsmagazines… unless the media is pulling a really BIG joke on the public, the overwhelming opinion is ‘i don’t appreciate the taxes i’m paying and don’t appreciate being hit on to pay higher taxes or new taxes…’
where have you been? were you held hostage on an island somewhere between shangri-la and the land of oz?
who have you spoken to who supported higher taxes for any purpose? ‘oh, gee, scotty, i’m just doing so well, uncle sam should take a bigger share of my hard-earned wages…’
who have you spoken to who supports doubling amtrak’s budget? have you talked with anyone who is not on a r.r. line used by amtrak? have you talked to anyone who believes amtrak is doing a bang-up job and certainly deserves more than the share of $$ they are getting?
you’re talking to the wrong guy… you admonished members who post messages here but do nothing more to raise the issue of amtrak funding or public support, yet you have posted several messages here in 1 week…
what are you doing, if you don’t object to my asking, to promote long-haul pass. service, especially to those who oppose it?
how many minds have you changed this year who were anti-amtrak, but now support funding as requested by mr. gunn?
confronting me or anyone else on this forum is not a prudent way of bringing the situation to america’s conscience… everybody posting here probably supports amtrak in some manner… why are you wasting time preaching to the choir?
you may be participating in an organization that is actively raising the cry to support amtrak, but you have not mentioned any activities so far…
what groups or clubs are writing letters, visiting politicians, soliciting support from people in the vicinity of r.r. stations?
i’ve said it before: a
Almost everyone I know cares. When faced with the facts that the federal government spends annually $35 billion on interstates that have already been built, $12 billion on airports that have already been built, $7 billion on buses that have already been built, what is a billion for Amtrak? Crumbs…
When asked what they wanted government to do? All said they were for more infrastructure. For those that wanted less government, they wanted less taxes and regulations, but most of those wanted more infrastructure…
When asked whether America should have a high speed rail network similar to Europe, most agree. In the polls I have seen, more people support high speed rail than they do Amtrak. Many people think Amtrak has been mismanaged. And why not?
Insisting on the daily transcontinentals running through some of the most barren areas of America is not bright. Having no plans to implement high speed rail in America to the major population centers is not bright. The people want other alternatives than the airlines and their car. They want passsenger trains, but they want them to go fast!!!
When will this government give the people want they want?
I wouldn’t compare USA with Europe. Two completely different stories. More people in Europe rely on trains to get them from point A to point B than here.
As for high speed network in this country- if there is money i say build it. But i won’t be surprised if only few people will use it. Cars are simply more affordable and convinient.
- Long distance rail travel in this country is dead!! Let the dead lie dead!!
- I would rather see the money being spent on Amtrak today, be used for expanding AIRPORTS!!
- I have taken trips on Amtrak 4 times in 2 year, everytime I get off the train I say the same thing, NEVER AGAIN!!
- Bigger airports boost the economy in there area. Railroads do not!! (Example: The new U.P. yard at Rochelle was turned down by two other communities.)
- A train takes twice as long to get from point A to point B. To a businessman time is money.
- A train ticket costs the same as a plane ticket.
TIM A
It depends. If it is commuter rail service quite a few would care if passenger rail service disappears; but, if it is long distance very few would care. According to statistics gathered by the Department of Transportation’s Bureau of Transportation Statistics only 0.5% of all trips in the U.S. longer than 100 miles are by train.
Let’s face it motorists pay user fees in the form of state or federal gasoline taxes, and sometimes tolls, to drive. Airline passengers pay user fees in the form of a 10% taxe on airline tickets, security fees, and airport passenger facility fees to fly. How much and what kind of user fees do railroad passengers pay?
I doubt of any congressman/congresswoman or senator would be turned out of office for failing to support passenger rail service.
After World War II the railroads spent plenty of money upgrading passenger trains even to the point of doing much more to make train travel attractive to the coach passenger, and people flocked to the trains. But, when air travel became more widespread and more comfortable it was only inevitable that people would travel by air.
There is a need for some long distance passengerail service, but mostly in the more crowded and densely populated corridors where building more highways is not the answer. Supporting all passenger rail service makes asmuch sense as bringing back the Pony Express and river steamers, or ocean liners from the U.S. to Europe, Hawaii, or the Far East.
One reason why passenger rail has suffered in this country is because the maintenance on the infrastructure of the competing modes (air and highway) are paid for by taxes while the freight lines are responsible for maintaining the rail lines. The freight lines maintain the tracks well enough so their trains can go over them at the rates they usually travel at which is not nearly good enough for passenger rail that could compete with cars and planes. According to two pieces in the current issue of “Trains” this is true, in part, because the men who own the railroads have always been afraid to let the government maintain the tracks because of the regulations that would certainly accompany such involvement. Also, the auto makers, truckers and the airlines have fought tooth and nail to prevent increased subsidies for rail service. Apparently, things are changing of late. On the one hand, trucking companies are beginning to work with railroads (“Beltway Insider”) and the railroad CEOs are also seeing advantages in working with the government (“From the Editor”).
Also, a study done for the National Association of Railroad Passengers, suggests that passenger rail would be competitive with air and highway transportation over medium distances (e. g. Chicago-Detroit) if it was subsidized on the same level.
Here in Chicago, we are fighting over how to deal with our over-crowded airports. At present, most plans propose updating existing airports or building a new one. But there is a small but growing minority that is advocating rail as the solution. Jet engines are terribly inefficient at low altitudes. On short flights, planes spend very little time at an altitude that is best for their engines. Diesel/Electric locomotives are already more efficient and with the improvements that are going to have to be done to reduce emissions, they’ll do better yet. We just need to have roads build with welded rails, concrete ties and no level crossings so that the trains can go 150+ mph like they do
I think its interesting that even countries like Korea, Taiwan, China, Russia, Spain are pulling ahead of the USA with highspeed rail, even India is working towards it. It seems every part of the world realizes the efficiency, ecconomic benefits, increased mobilty and minimal environmental impact of highspeed rail. One rail track is equal to seventeen lanes of interstate. Does anyone in the Bush administration realize that? Building high speed rail would greatly cut our dependence on foriegn oil, this should be a national priority. Air travel is a horrible fuel guzzling mode of transport, as is most highway oriented transport.
With airlines not wanting to deal with trips under 400 miles in distance , there is a huge need for highspeed rail transportation in this country. Think about it next time your stuck in traffic whether it is Atlanta, Orlando, Des Moines Houston, L.A., etc. The USA needs more trains not less. Due to the high population growth of this country it is only going to get worse. Interstate highways no matter how many lanes you add will never match the potential efficiency and capacity to move people and goods as rail can. It is also a relative cheap to build rail compared to airport runaways or interstate highways through urban/suburban areas. The French TGV proved this. I wi***he leadership of the USA Democrat and Republican had some vision, instead just apeasing those who contribute to their campaigns every two to four years. We need a highspeed interstate rail system equivelant to Eisenhower’s Interstate highway vision of the 1950’s which is our reality now, for good or bad.
James
www.parail.com
Why is Cunard building the new Queen Mary 2, twice the displacement of the Queen Elizabeth 2? Why did Norwegian Cruise Lines buy and save the S.S. United States, yes the Big U, the pride of the American merchant marine and holder of the Blue Ribband? No one I know likes to fly, no one I know likes to drive more than 3 hours. However, everyone I know don’t mind riding fast trains as they have in Europe for several hours…
Vision is the word. Insight into the future. While our population is not as dense as Europe’s, the United States is still growing, whereas Europe isn’t. In twenty to thirty years, most of America east of the Mississippi River will be as dense as Europe is today, plus the eastern half of Texas. In the 2000 census, Texas has a population of over 22 million, ten of it in two large metropolitan areas of Houston and Dallas. In the next twenty years, that number is expected to double…
Practically all of the states east of the Mississippi River is dense enough for high speed rail, as is California. There is no need to wait twenty years, we need to get started NOW!
High speed rail lines can be built alongside interstate highways, and alongside current railroad right of ways. When the lines close upon a large city, small distances can be purchased to connect the stations in existence already to the new main lines (probably less than a mile). High speed rail lines can also be built under the huge transmission power lines too. Available CHEAP real estate exists.
THE BEST OF WHAT HIGH SPEED RAIL LINES BRING TO THE TABLE IS MORE FREQUENCY! For example, a train averaging 150 mph can travel the 900 miles distances of most of the legs I proposed in 6 hours, not 24 hours. Therefore two trains operating on any leg can provide service every 3 hours, three trains can provide service every 2 hours. THIS IS AIRLINE SERVICE FREQUENCY!
No need to run trains at night. If one is late, wait 2 hours for the next train. All of this during daylight hou
if long-haul pass. service appeals to taxpayers, politicians, etc., why hasn’t construction started? if hi-speed rail is important to our transportation infrastructure, why hasn’t construction started?
is the vision in this area confined to railfans? is there noone else who can understand the importance of pouring concrete to begin this leap forward?
the answer is market appeal… it sells everything anyone ever purchased… we all use soap, right? does it matter what brand we buy? not really… why do we buy certain brands and not others? market appeal… the price, the color, the shape all contribute to the appeal of the product…
this applies to presidential elections, tv sets, and mass transit…
people have to want to use a product before they spend their money…
people do not care to use long-haul pass. service because it doesn’t appeal to them… i have already discussed the reasons for r.rs. lack of appeal… and there are hundreds more… unless/until an idea is presented to its audience in an appealing manner, it will not sell, period…
promises of better this-and-that will not motivate people to demand better rail service… the govt. promising to do something carries no weight with the public… there is no trust, no credibility in the govt…
a promise to build a better rail system will not impress anyone except bidding contractors and politicians in areas where work would take place…
a promise to make america as well-connected as the nec would carry no weight with 90% of voters… voters do not care about improving conditions in another part of the country… and they really don’t care to pay taxes to provide better rail service between chicago and omaha…
due to planes and cars, railroads have become a local issue, or 500 miles of where you are…
someday, 500-mile links of rapid rail systems may be a reality… but a mere plan that would be agreeable to everyone concerned won’t happe
Frankly, I am not that much of a supporter for Amtrak. I would prefer to have private industry build the high speed railroad tracks, and operate them. But I do know this, the government will have to get involved to remove the obstacles: such as the nimby organizations, to force people to sell real estate at a reasonable price, and sell and back the bonds.
Ten years ago, TGV wanted to build the Texas triangle high speed trains, but they needed the help of the state government to back and sell the bonds. NO ONE HAS FIVE BILLION DOLLARS BURNING A HOLE IN THEIR POCKETS! Approximately 400 miles of double track electrified high speed rail would have been built at $12 million a mile is 4.8 billion dollars. The route was Dallas to San Antonio alongside I-35, with a branch from Temple to Houston alongside State Highway 6.
The only problem is by Texas law the selling of bonds must be approved by the electorate. At that time the state DOT was prohibited to sell bonds. Texas’ turnpikes at that time were built by the North Texas Turnpike Authority, a commission brought about by a state constitutional amendment, which was passed by the voters in the early 1950s. Even today it is limited to selling only $1 billon worth of bonds, or debt. As we speak, the North Texas Turnpike Authority is building the new George Bu***urnpike around the northern suburbs of Dallas. However, since it is limited to a certain amount of debt, it has taken over 10 years just to get from State Highway 78 to I-35E. It is being built several miles at a time, which generate revenue to pay off some bonds, so that they can sell more bonds to build more of the turnpike. Eventually, in thirty years time, this turnpike might surround Dallas.
It is the same with DART. DART after selling its limit of bonds, again $1billion, was able to build a short starter line. As a few years went by, DART was able to build some more of the line to Plano. With federal appropriations the line to Garland was extended. SO IF THE FEDS CAN F
when a govt. runs the r.r., they spend all the money they want… tgv in france, and whatever they call it in japan, are govt. operations…
they can do whatever they want, they are in charge… they own the bank, they print the money…
here, not true, o.k.? private r.rs. run freights, govt. runs pass… they share freight’s r-o-w, o.k.?
private r.rs. will not sell another pass. ticket in the present universe…
that leaves just the govt… not csx or bnsf, not a group of r.rs., not a whiz-bang co. from mexico city…
the only way long-haul pass. will work here is if it is handled by the govt., just like in other countries, o.k.?
the problem is, other countries have always handled their r.rs… here, private r.rs. handle freight, will never give it up, and resent the presence of amtrak on their r-o-w, o.k.?
the only r-o-w amtrak can use is private freights’, because they used to run pass. trains on the same tracks they use for freight service now…
american taxpayers & politicians will never support building r-o-w just for amtrak, read my previous posts…
texas’ secret behind their building of transit lines is just that, they are transit lines… the feds support transit lines because crowded cities want them, the product is pre-sold… noone will draw a supportive crowd arguing against transit, o.k.?
rail pass. service in america is dead for service over 500 miles… amtrak will not be running the cross-country trains in 10 more years, the inflationary cost is too great, the benefits are too small, o.k.?
europe and other areas of the world can operate cross-country rail because they are in charge… their word trumps anything the opposition can say…
the golden rule: ‘he who has the gold, makes the rules’… o.k.?
here the gold is split between the govt. and private freights, o.k.?
public sentiment, brainstorming of ideas and lists of advantages
I’m no expert… but trains make a lot less noise than airports. And people complain about the noise from the airports (why they chose to live by one is beyond me). The government is willing to give billions to aid airlines and security that should have been considered in the first place and not a dime to Amtrak. The airport terminals some of you glorified owe their design (well nature of it) to the great tra9ins stations of America, namely Grand Central Station in NYC. Yeah, we won’t have passenger trains like the ICE, TGV, and the Acela trainsets are a joke (now the HHP-8 locomotives are better). If anything, the US should invest in cars and locomotives and updrading and expanding the infrastructure to make the high speed rail possible. Not just for passengers, but also frieght. Think about it. A container ship loaded with bannas docks and they put it on some hotshot intermodal frieght from LA to Chicago, it’ll get there in two days…but what about one day, half a day, etc… the same we can do with passengers… it oughta be both. Remeber LCD (lasss than a carload) consists and passenger trains from my understanding were the priority trains of any railroad. Like the NY Central’s Pacemaker (I might thave that one wrong) LCD service, for priority/perishable cargoes. Als we need to have pride in having passenger trains, like the Pennsyslavaina RR had for their blue ribbon fleet of trains. I doubt many Americans have pride in Amtrack, muchless the trains themselves or know if it exists. Like I asked my class of 32 fellow students, i’m the only one that has ridden a train beyond toursit trains, commutter rail, and rapid transit. And that was on Amtrack.
Also I think (but won’t happen) that if there was competition between two RRs like the New York Central and Pennyslavainia did with their 20th Century Limit and the Broadway Limit, respectively, over practically the “same” route; service would be better, and the same for speed, competition can be very much a motivator in doing some
you are living in a dream world… why would two r.rs. compete for pass. traffic? what’s the incentive? the admiration of the public? what could possibly make it worth their while to put in pass. trains when they could make 4x the money with freight?
you make it sound like, if we just ask them, they would fight to get in the doorway to ask us to allow them to run pass. trains just to make us happy…
really, what is that?
i’d really like for someone to respond to the arguments i have posted…
why would r.rs. run pass. trains instead of freight? they cut engineers off from loco cabs… they’re working conductors @ twice the responsibility as engineers and don’t pay them a dime extra… why would they spend $$ on pass. service?
r.rs. lost money on nearly all pass. runs when service was at its peak, but the freight side paid for it, so it balanced out, and they still made money…
the world is different in 2003… and you’re saying, golly, i bet the same r.rs. who couldn’t wait to drop pass. service would now compete to return pass. service to the way it was…
have you read any news bulletins about the r.rs. being interested in running pass. trains? why is that?
you are failing to consider the ‘cause-and-effect’ aspect of the issue… for a business to do something, there has to be a reason, a motivation, a payoff concept…
r.rs. make good money hauling reight, and they bend over backwards to do it… this impresses customers and hopefully attracts interest from those who have not shipped by rail…
the motivation for pass. service is what? to provide adequate service, lose only a little money, so they can attract more people who want to ride and help the r.r. lose a little more money? are there many people who believe that?