Does anyone know if there are Mainline tracks used by several RR Companies where the track not only is used by the several Companies, but also ownership is shared by the several Companies?
I’m thinking of class-1s but I suppose smaller companies would apply also (I think??)
This would be different from one Company paying a fee to use another Company’s Track.
Thanks
BBF
On many track diagrams where there is congested trackage, limits will be indicated along with what percentage of maintenance expenses are borne by each owning railroad. See example:
Track Diagram Ashtabula Crossing by Edmund, on Flickr
Sometimes there are physical signs at the site so M-of-W crews know where the boundaries are.
This example shows Conrail at 78.37% and N&W at 21.63%. These figures are negotiated by the legal department based on operating ratios. Note the boundary line of the affected area.
Track Diagram Toledo Conrail by Edmund, on Flickr
I’ve seen agreements regarding interlocking towers where not only the maintenance expenses are divided up but also the operators expenses (wages) are shared in varying degrees.
Regards, Ed
Many times, in terminal areas, several Class Ones will split ownership of a terminal company and they all use their trackage. The BRC in Chicago and the TRRA in St Louis are good examples.
Where multiple railroads operate in a geographically constricted area - One carrier got there FIRST. Subsequent carriers wanting to operate in that same location will negotiate a ‘Joint Facilities Agreement’ that defines who will pay and what they will pay for. Normally the second and subsequent carriers in a Joint Facilities Agreement will PAY FOR most all of the Maintenance on the Joint Facility that the ORIGINAL carrier will likely control and operate.
Track rights are in lieu of toll charges which way back in time trains had to pay in cash to access a neighboring road
I thought I was clear in my first post when I said:
“This would be different from one Company paying a fee to use another Company’s Track.”
I was asking ONLY about 2 or more RRs owning some Track together, not one RR paying another RR any fee to use the track.
I think Backshop answered your question: shared ownership of track by giving it a different name - BRC for example.
On the Pikes Peak subdivison which is jointly owned and runs from Denver south to Pueblo Colorado. BNSF and UP run trains where sections of track are owned and dispatched by the other railroad.
Only ONE company will own any segment of track. That being said, if TWO companies believe they should BOTH own a track segment, their Legal Departments will create a Third company to own the segment with each of the original carriers owning 50% of the new third company.
If you get the opportunity to view the legal ‘genealogy’ of a carrier you will run across a multitude of named carriers that exist in the paperwork. Many of these carriers existed in fact, many of them were ‘legal creations’ to cover things such as joint ownership situations.
Wherever two or more carriers operate on a individual segment of track, there will be a legal agreement between the parties that will specify the operating and maintenance parameters of that track segment and who will pay what to whom and under what circumstance. There are no ‘free rides’.
Pictured is a reason there are no free rides
Railroads are all about MONEY. Back in the days before Penn Central. The B&O and PRR had a pair of ‘deals’ - between JO Tower in Akron and Warwick; as well as between Newark and Columbus each carrier owned a track between the points identified. In operations the B&O Dispatched the line between Newark and Columbus; the PRR Dispatched the line between JO & Warwick. A Joint Facilities agreement specified the operations and how the costs were apportioned.
There are and have been placed where two side by side, more or less, have agreed to joint use to form a double track arrangement. In some cases, each railroad maintained and dispatched their track. In others one of the railroads would maintain and dispatch both tracks.
Many times true joint ownership was through jointly owned companies, as already pointed out. The Rock Island and Burlington, later Burlington Northern, had a joint line from Dallas/Ft Worth to the Houston/Galveston area. Originally the line was started as the Trinity and Brazos Valley RR, it was purchased by the Colorado and Southern (owner of the Ft Worth and Denver), finished and a half interest sold to the RI. Gradually it became the Burlington-Rock Island RR, then eventually transformed into the Joint Texas Division in the 1960s. As the Joint Texas Division, management was shared in 5 year increments. The RI would be in charge for 5 years, then CB&Q/FWD/BN management would be in charge. When the RI shutdown, BN took over full ownership.
Operationally, each parent railroad had their own crew base. Trains were crewed on a pooled basis. A RI crew might be on a BN train and vice-versa.
Speaking of BN(SF), their line from Albia, Iowa to Des Moines is made up of trackage owned by BNSF and NS. Originally CB&Q and Wabash side by side lines, they combined sections of both into one line after both had washouts on their original lines. Ownership og the segments was noted in the employee timetable, but CB&Q/BN dispatched the entire line. That ownership arrangement still exists, but NS no longer runs its own train. (They abandoned their own line between Albia and Moberly, Missouri in the 1980s.) Rather NS traffic is handled in BNSF trains on a haulage rights basis. NS crews provide the terminal and industrial switching for both companies in the Des Moines terminal area.
Jeff
The only example of this that I know of is the Saint Charles Air Line (SCAL) in Chicago. SCAL is NOT a railroad company. The assets (real property, structures, signals, and track) are jointly owned directly by BNSF, UP, and CN. Contractual agreements between the three companies. At the moment, CN is the only one of the three owners who uses the line, and they do all the maintenance and dispatching.
Note this is different from the more typical case where a jointly used rail line is owned by a single terminal railroad company that is in turn owned by multiple Class 1 railroads.
Dan
This is all about planning my new HO layout to operate as realistic as possible. The scenario is
circa late 70s early 80s a Shortline RR serving a local valley high in the mountain area comprised of several industries which are important enough for Class ones to come to that area and pick up cars with those vital products to take to the outside world. (Where I live in So. Calif. in the High Desert there are actually a few big industries isolated and you would think you are in the middle of nowhere).
Also this layout, Class ones are bringing in vital supplies for those important industries and for the communities in the local area.
The local model industries and communities are quite isolated so they depend on the Class ones to bring in supplies and take products to the outside world to make money for the folks in the local towns. RRs are pretty much the transportation lifeblood of this hypothetical scenario high in the remote mountain area.
No main highways very close, in this hypothetical setting, maybe 40 miles of rugged gravel and dirt roads there that will get you close to a main paved highway but there have been railroads up there for many years and the primitive logging rails have been upgraded to handle more modern locos and rolling stock, but the roads and highways have not.
Therefore, taking it to a different level now as this is all an excuse to allow Class ones to Visit.
If this hypothetical Mainline is owned in some manner by several Class Ones and it picks up cars or delivers cars by taking a siding and dropping off or picking up cars at an interchange yard owned by the local Mt. Shortline company serving the local industries in the surrounding local area, do the Class ones have to pay the Shortline company a fee to interface with the interchange yard tracks?
As most Model Railroading is compressed, this setup allows for some Class ones or their cars to pass through the area to add their flags and colors to the View. Makes for an interesting layout
IMO. I’ll be dealing with a little over 30 feet of mainline but with folded loops stacked maybe 3X
almost like a helix (mountains) I could get a couple scale miles of mainline @ 60 feet per mile.
The interchange yard will feed into a small classification & maintenance yard for the Shortline.
The nature and evolution of the geology results in the Class ones having to come in at a higher altitude and descend into the valley to the interchange yard.
Let’s see if I’m understanding the scenario - an isolated shortline railroad serves several industries and gets and sends out cars via an interchange track. However, several big railroads own the interchange track together, so they can all use it to reach the shortline interchange?
IF that is correct, I think it would be unlikely. I can’t see say BN, D&RGW and UP getting together to build and operate a joint line to get to a little shortline railroad to pick up and drop off a few cars. If it were a lot of cars, it’s possible one railroad like say BN might build and own the line, and work out an agreement with UP and DRGW to allow them to access the interchange. But that’s more common in a crowded urban area, where railroad A used railroad B to get to railroad C’s yard to interchange cars.
However, if the shortline has enough business to be profitable, it’s quite likely one of the big railroads would just buy it and operate the whole thing themselves.
No !
The Shortline owns the interchange.
I asked if they would have to pay any fee to the Shortline to drop off and pickup cars at the
interchange.
The idea of the Mainline owned by a few Class ones is just to have an excuse to see Class one
trains passing through, and in this case to interface with the interchange.
The products are important enough for the Class ones to bother with the interface with the Shortline.. The Shortline is doing all the Grunt work in the area sorting, delivering picking up cars
at the local isolated industries, maybe even creating an opportunity for a passenger RR to the outside world (not sure if that would be Amtrack..this is late 70s-early 80s).
There is an Amtrack station I seen on youtube, in the desert in the middle of nowhere which very seldom has a train stop there and it is a nice station, not a dump. Population is very sparce.
Also in West Va. there is an Amtrack stop in some isolated practically abandoned town, so there are anomallies in the U.S. Train world to model.
I can’t see say BN, D&RGW and UP getting together to build and operate a joint line to get to a little shortline railroad to pick up and drop off a few cars
I never said that.
The mainline is what remains of a logging operation over a very long period of time, but the tracks have been maintained and upgraded over the years. The mainline also goes beyond this
local area off into the distant world, but this just happens to be along the way, and is the community oriignally connected to the logging company, maybe a sawmill and there are other
industries also that developed over the years. Maybe Cement, Chemicals, general manufacturing or whatever etc., which support a community with small businesses and necessities for the residents and workers.
The Class one track may have several different Class ones using that mainline so there is an opportunity to run assorted Class one trains. (that’s why I asked in the first place) so this model
RR would have several Class ones on the layout to look good and be realistic at least within the realm of possibilities.
The Class one Mainline in West Va. I mentioned goes right through the abandoned town (that has an Amtrack stop) carrying & transporting coal and you would never expect it to be anything other than a ghost town, long abandoned, so there are oddball situations to model.
Will one of the Class ones buy the Shortline trackage, yard and interchange for their own to service the local important industries? I hope not. Why not just let the Shortline do the Grunt work of servicing the industries and community as it is too much hassle for the big RR to bother with. Just maybe pickup shipments of important product, return empties and drop off supplies at the Shortline interchange since the Class one is going that route anyway to travel beyond this
local area out and beyond to deliver the rest of the cars on the train to bigger locations.
Have you ever watched “Railroad Alaska” on TV? There are people there so isolated that the Alaska RR is their only transportation lifeline and means of buying food and necessities, and the
train will stop in the middle of nowhere to pick them up and drop them off where they left their
snowmobile. They have to take the train even to get gasoline for their snowmobile.
So like I said, there are some oddball train scenarios to model.
How is the interchange you propose operated - on both sides. Is your ‘short line’ blocking cars placed on the interchange such that each of the other carriers participating have their cars separate from the other carriers cars? Or are you ‘shot gunning’ the cars placed on the interchange and the other carriers have to switch out the cars for their carrier and leaving the balance on the interchange? Who controls the time access to the interchange among the Class 1 carriers? Is this a Single interchange track or multiple tracks being the designated interchange tracks? What is the scale of the interchange volumes for each of the carriers?
If we are dealing with 21st Century Class 1’s - understand, for a new operation they will not want to be involved with traffic levels that are less than TRAINLOAD volumes. A hand full of cars is not business they are seeking out.
In general revenues are based on Origin-Destination mileages, Is your ‘short line’ participating in the line haul revenue or is it using per car switching charges as its revenue base.
I think you can just operate whatever fantasy you want.
Model RR’s can be a fantasy.
REAL RAILROADS are money making enterprises that are governed by multiple sets industry rules as well as the Laws from multiple governmental institutions.
Modelers would do well to educate themselves on the REAL WORLD of railroading as it applies to all levels of carriers from Class 1’s down to Regionals, Short Lines and Switching carriers and how each of these varying carriers derives their incomes and pay their expenses. Additionally there are rules and regulations that apply to how each of these carriers interact with each other.
I don’t think that applies to model railroads. In the above model railroader’s case, ownership really isn’t going to be seen in his layout of the short line or the interchange with class ones.
Only if they are a masochist.
BaltACD said:
If we are dealing with 21st Century Class 1’s - understand, for a new operation they will not want to be involved with traffic levels that are less than TRAINLOAD volumes. A hand full of cars is not business they are seeking out.
This Layout is not 21st Century facsimilie, it is late 70s early 80s. Don’t Model RRds require compression in size to be practical? How would it be possible to get “Trainload Volumes”
unless you had a building for your Layout as big as a basketball gymnasium?
In general revenues are based on Origin-Destination mileages, Is your ‘short line’ participating in the line haul revenue or is it using per car switching charges as its revenue base.
Good Question: I’ll have to research those factors and scale it down to HO Model Railroading.
I’m just trying to get the operation as close to real world as is practical so it makes some kind of sense.
“How is the interchange you propose operated - on both sides. Is your ‘short line’ blocking cars placed on the interchange such that each of the other carriers participating have their cars separate from the other carriers cars? Or are you…etc”
I’ll look into those factors, but I doubt all that will apply, even as I’m trying to make the operation as realistic as possible which I know will not be 100%.
I do appreciate the descriptions of real world RR financial operations though. I think part of the
fun of this hobby is learning how and why train companies do what they do.and try to apply it
to your model RR. “Research” is fun. I used to drive to yards and just watch the trains do various tasks, shuffle the cars, operate hump yards etc Also watched how switchers serve industries, pick up and set out cars, Even found the printed schedules and placement list for the switchers discarded near the switchers designated factories.
.
. I live in the L.A. area so I went to the UP, SP and even the Santa Fe yard in Barstow back in the 80s. But I have been surprised by the Shortline RRs and their operations, which are more suitable to model RRng I think just due to space requirements unless you have a huge space.
As far as “absolute” realism you can’t have that, so you take what you can get.
At least it’s better than watching model trains go round and round with no purpose at all.
Also a lot of “so called” model railroaders confuse model RR layouts with roller Coasters.
To get it “Real” you have to study geology and see why trains cut thru mountains or go around in loops etc. I live near Cajon Pass so I am fortunate to see all that action and geology there.
BBF
*If you are not modeling (duplicating) a specific Real World Train scenario you should have *
some kind of storyline for your Model RR that describes what is going on in your layout world.
MY STORYLINE DEVELOPMENT REFERENCE (Not EXACTLY but Reference)
Possible Interchange up in the Mountain Region. Regional Products are Still Needed somewhere and Still Support the Local Population and Towns Up Here
Logging History Built this RR and Region, and Still Exists
Unconventional tunnel cut by the Shortline. Probably doesn’t meet Gov’t regulations.
Climbing High to get 4014 Back Home. Not Typical but Shows Mountain Mainline
